[Discussion] TRR Non-Aggression Pact

[Zaolat]

I really don't appreciate my views being called "purist raider" when that is not at all what I've argued. There are plenty of other regions that are stronger militarily, culturally, and even in membership. But we want to open up relations with TRR because we're "Sister Sinkers" which is absolute bull shit. That is a terrible way to conduct foreign relations and we've seen previous pacts that were based solely on the premise of Sinker Solidarity crash and burn.

I don't see a reason for us to open relations with TRR when there are plenty of other regions that we can get the same if not more benefit from. Besides "Omg we want to be the best Sinker buddies ever."

Sorry, but I see absolutely no empirical fact of cons in that argument. Just personal opinion with no helpful value to the discussion. Venico, you Raid and you RP. Yes, you do get into politics, but not like a Sinkertie or an Imperialist. Your view is more akin to a Raider Purist, thus the broad grouping. I'm not saying that this is absolutely that, but it's close enough in this context.

I'm not stupid.

[Venico]

I've offered alternatives to TRR like 10KI. Hell I'll even offer another one. Spiritus. A NAP with Spiritus would show that the old hostilities between our one enemy and us are buried.

But no, you can dismiss my opinions because they're entirely militarily and ideologically based. I'm just a big dumb raider who hates all defenders clearly. Dumb Venico no understand politics.

[Zaolat]

I've offered alternatives to TRR like 10KI. Hell I'll even offer another one. Spiritus. A NAP with Spiritus would show that the old hostilities between our one enemy and us are buried.

But no, you can dismiss my opinions because they're entirely militarily and ideologically based. I'm just a big dumb raider who hates all defenders clearly. Dumb Venico no understand politics.

10KI is more irrelevant in comparison to TRR, same with Spiritus. The reason why? Because with GCRs, GCRs have a higher priority with each other then a majority of UCRs. Yes, there are UCRs that are relevant to OFO, but politically and militarily 10KI/Spiritus would not be in our best interests for a NAP. Whereas all three are Defender, only TRR is more than just that and that's being a Sinker.

You're not stupid, I just don't think you understand as well because you weren't "raised" in a GCR from either being in a GCR since nearly day one of your existence in the game or during the surge of GCR relevancy to gameplay as a whole, which started around 2010 and onward.

[Vaculatestar]

I can see that this may be heading to a more personal argument so I'm going to change direction here.

Sorry Cormac but I'm going to play devils advocate here for a minute.

Just as we are attempting to improve our standing in the world with this, what are the odds that Unibot, given his track record, is not truly extending an olive branch but is actually attempting to improve his standing in the world by showing that he can be friendly towards the R side of R/D? After all it is no secret that he is possibly the least popular GCR delegate in the game.

[Zaolat]

I can see that this may be heading to a more personal argument so I'm going to change direction here.

Sorry Cormac but I'm going to play devils advocate here for a minute.

Just as we are attempting to improve our standing in the world with this, what are the odds that Unibot, given his track record, is not truly extending an olive branch but is actually attempting to improve his standing in the world by showing that he can be friendly towards the R side of R/D? After all it is no secret that he is possibly the least popular GCR delegate in the game.

Then they get called on it and bashed for it. That's a loss on their side, but I'd imagine the other GCRs and relevant UCRs would side with us.

Secondly, I doubt it would come to that, at least concerning Osiris alone.

[Cormac]

New draft, addressing some ambiguity concerns in the second and fourth clauses that TRR pointed out to us:

Non-Aggression Pact between Osiris and The Rejected Realms

Recognising that the past has been mired with diplomatic conflict and miscommunication between our regions,

Believing that any positive future relationship between our regions must first begin with mutual respect, recognition, and peace,

Both parties hereby:

1. Recognize the governments legally established under the Constitution of The Rejected Realms and the State Code of Osiris, and any legal successor governments thereto, as the legitimate governments of The Rejected Realms and Osiris, respectively.

2. Respect the right of these legitimate governments to govern their respective home regions.

3. Vow neither to invade the home region of the other party nor to participate in any action with the intent to overthrow their legitimate government as recognised in this Pact.

4. Understand that the parties are expected not to circumvent this agreement nor undermine its terms in any way, including through third parties.

This will also be posted in the OP. Broader objections aside, are there objections to the new wording?

I would still like to delay a motion to vote until we're 100% sure TRR has no other issues with the text.

[Venico]

New wording seems more clean and less rushed. VeniProved.

[shetef]

Seems fine to me.

[Asvars]

General objection to the entire endeavor aside, this is better than the last draft, yes.

[Vaculatestar]

I echo those sentiments.