[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty

[Weast Jurmany]

Sygian bringing up this issue has been very productive to discuss CAIN and what needs to be fixed. Having said that, I do agree with Cormac and others that we should take more responsibility, as a region, to participate and work to improve CAIN rather than throwing away the coalition with a noble and what should be a unifying goal. I personally feel very strongly about taking an active role to fight any sort of Nazi rhetoric, there is enough hate in real life that we can't control but we can work to make Nationstates as accepting as possible to people from all backgrounds. Having said that I think many of us will look at the actions of CAIN with more scrutiny now.

[Sygian]

You admit that you have no insider knowledge into the inter-workings of CAIN and yet you allege that TGW is somehow the puppet master of our Coalition.

You'll see soon enough that I am correct when I say that there are other regions that will be taking a stance very similar to mine quite soon. Not sure how I can make that any clearer without spoiling the fun.

I believe that the main issue with it is not the operation itself but who led it to begin with.

That's what happens when you let TGW use CAIN as a tool to further their low operation success rate.

I am the only perceivable leader of CAIN in the eyes of most. When you call CAIN's leaders "self-centered egomaniacs" how is that not a baseless, rude insult to my character?

But I also said that the Grey Wardens were "puppet masters" of CAIN. Don't flatter yourself.

Yes, Vaclav Vinograd was quite the victim. There's no way he did anything worthy of being pushed away.

Once again, you aren't really seeing what I am trying to say. For heavens sake, I was appointed to the committee that was supposed to gather enough evidence to revoke Vaclav's citizenship. And that I did. Once he was removed from Osiris, Balder, et al he left the game because he was ignored and rejected by the majority. Make sense now?



You claim that things are going to be fixed and the overcome of the issues currently facing CAIN will be accomplished, yet you question why everybody is ordering the "leadership" and telling them what to do without making an attempt to fix anything. The reason they aren't making an attempt is because the majority of them are fed up with the bullshit going on, they feel ridiculous for participating in failed operations against Nazis that were supposed to succeed, and they want a fix or they're leaving. And I promise you that.

[Brunhilde]

You'll see soon enough that I am correct when I say that there are other regions that will be taking a stance very similar to mine quite soon. Not sure how I can make that any clearer without spoiling the fun.

If a region has a problem with the Coalition being controlled by "puppet masters" and are not stepping forward to talk about it then there's nothing I can do to help them.

That's what happens when you let TGW use CAIN as a tool to further their low operation success rate.

This hasn't happened. TGW has asked for support for ONE failed mission. That failed mission was Femdom Empire which, as has been repeatedly discussed, is a valid target that was approached in the wrong way.

But I also said that the Grey Wardens were "puppet masters" of CAIN. Don't flatter yourself.

A claim that you made with absolutely no merit. TGW doesn't control a voting bloc, they've never pushed something to vote, and they've never pushed an attack against a region that didn't meet the criteria of a Nazi Collaborator.

You're making an entire case on the mistaken idea that CAIN is somehow controlled by a group that most of its signatories actively distrust or dislike without any sort of proof to back it up beyond the fact that they got a group committed to fighting Nazis to help them on a botched mission that was crashed by Nazis.

I'm not "flattering" myself, I'm speaking what has been repeatedly stated time and time again. I am, in every way, as close as it gets to CAIN's "leader" because of my role as its creator and informal organizer. When you insult its leaders, to say that you're not insulting me is ignoring the facts of the Coalition entirely.

---

You have legitimate issues with TGW's role organizing the operation in FE. Legitimate issues that can, and are being, addressed. These things take time, especially when they involve 20 other regions and strong personalities.

[Sygian]

If a region has a problem with the Coalition being controlled by "puppet masters" and are not stepping forward to talk about it then there's nothing I can do to help them.

And I'm sure the exact reason that they are not stepping forward is what is right in front of you here and on Discord, where the person stepping forward and making a public stance (in this case, it's me) gets publicly humiliated by repeated attacks on his/her character and questioning/insulting his/her motives. When you are spewing fantasies like "your opinion will be listened to and addressed", it is now obvious that all of that is bullshit. You're giving them an image, a "simulation" if I may, that their opinion is going to be heard out in a civil conversation. Now it's obvious that it's not. (see: Osiris Citizen channel on Discord, CAIN server, and this forum thread).

Thanks for just proving my point even further.

[Brunhilde]

The only points that I've proven is that I won't sit back and listen to those making unfounded accusations against my creation. I certainly won't sit back and be called a self centered egomaniac or have someone with absolutely zero inside knowledge make claims that they know nothing about.

I question your motives because you tell me, privately, that you don't dislike CAIN then go ahead and post this. I question your motives because you've been taking not so sly shots at CAIN at every opportunity. I question your motives because you come to me with a problem that I've told you has been fixed only to use it to smear CAIN's name despite it not happening since I explicitly told you it was dealt with.

I have been more than fair in listening to those who want to make things better and who have ideas to change things but you don't want that. You want to tear CAIN down because Tim and Misley said a couple of mean things. You're not interested in fixing anything, you merely want to destroy what I've spent months building. You haven't offered a single solution to any problem and ignored every attempt to say that some of your issues have been addressed.

I'm not exactly sure how I haven't given you a fair shake, especially given how I've repeatedly said your problems have and are being addressed, but at this point I'm sure it doesn't matter.

[Sygian]

You want to tear CAIN down because Tim and Misley said a couple of mean things.

I would rather tear it down because it's putting on a show for the damn Nazis by putting them under the spotlight, but sure.

I'd like to restate this.

Unless you remove the player from the game, or convince them that what they're doing is "hateful" and "wrong" (the latter would be less uncomplicated from what I've seen), they will just create another Nazi region/organization. The only way we can achieve exactly what CAIN wants to accomplish is if we just ignore them and leave them to do whatever the hell they want in their Nazi circle jerk in their "nook of ambiguity where all abysmal extremists belong."

But go ahead. Go fight for your "creation" by joining the playground with the Nazis. What a virtuous peculiar plan for one that is so against a hundred year old ideology that isn't going any-fucking-where.!

EDIT: Correct, I do not dislike CAIN's idea. I do, though, so very much abhor the way it is being used, managed, and its organization/leadership. And I want it the fuck out of my nice region that I have contributed so much to.

[Brunhilde]

So what? We should stop fighting against hate because hate's not going away?

I'm not of the belief that stepping aside to let them do what they want is preferable to opposing them, even if it puts the spotlight on them.

I'll fight for my creation because I'm tired of hearing "just ignore" the NS equivalent of people that made me leave my home because they painted Swastikas on my property and threw bricks through my windows. It's not being pragmatic, it's cowardice and wanting to do what is easy rather than what is right.

[Sygian]

You've dropped this to a low, diminished argument about a real life situation and frankly, I don't want to have anything to do with it. If your plan when someone wants to criticize or denounce something you helped create is to make them feel culpable by making multiple arguments about a real life situation just to get them to be quiet, then you've done a damn good job.

I understand that CAIN is an OOC coalition that claims to be fighting an OOC threat, but I'm not going to point out what is wrong with it and condemn it if this is what I'm going to get. I would have taken this to the Council of Viziers privately if I knew that you were going to go this low. If you think that acknowledging Nazis and putting them in the spotlight is the "right" thing to do, then you're quite mistaken.

So far the only hate that I've seen come from CAIN/Nazis on this game since the coalition was initiated is from those who personally attacked my OOC character here and on Discord including you, and CAIN itself.

Frankly, I don't want to have to argue against your religious and cultural beliefs, because that is clearly where you are trying to lead this threat.

Discussion is still open among other citizens.

[Treize Dreizehn]

You know the argument that "by fighting them we're giving them something to rally against, so really the best bet is to stop fighting them and let them fade into insignificance" was something I used to argue at defenders (when I was pretending to be one) so they'd stop fighting raiders. It's equally applicable. Sure raiding would still go on without defenders but it wouldn't be as organized, widespread, or as serious a threat (and I mean that in the best possible way) if defenders didn't exist.

But that argument is inherently flawed even if it's true (as it was when I made it way back when). Ultimately the people of NS have a choice: Stand by and do nothing while the nazi utilizes whatever power they can acquire to become as much of a problem as they can be. Or fight them. If by fighting them we draw other assholes onto the other side, so be it. The alternative is to stand by while these people spread their hateful ideology or worse, stand by and allow that ideology to become acceptable in "some areas" of NS.

No tolerance at all for this kind of behavior is the only way to ensure that continues. Right now that's embodied by CAIN. My suggestion to you, Sygian, is this: I don't think you'll find enough support in the Council of Scribes for a repeal in Osiris (and the argument in this thread isn't going to persuade hardly anyone to either side). Rather than continue to waste time arguing here, accept that, and start thinking up solutions to solve the problems you've outlined. None of them are critical, but together they represent a serious issue that needs addressing.

So. Outside of "walk away", what can Osiris do to help solve the problems that CAIN has encountered thus far?

[Brunhilde]

You've dropped this to a low, diminished argument about a real life situation and frankly, I don't want to have anything to do with it. If your plan when someone wants to criticize or denounce something you helped create is to make them feel culpable by making multiple arguments about a real life situation just to get them to be quiet, then you've done a damn good job.

I understand that CAIN is an OOC coalition that claims to be fighting an OOC threat, but I'm not going to point out what is wrong with it and condemn it if this is what I'm going to get. I would have taken this to the Council of Viziers privately if I knew that you were going to go this low. If you think that acknowledging Nazis and putting them in the spotlight is the "right" thing to do, then you're quite mistaken.

So far the only hate that I've seen come from CAIN/Nazis on this game since the coalition was initiated is from those who personally attacked my OOC character here and on Discord including you, and CAIN itself.

CAIN was created for the express purpose of fighting an ideology that had terrorized millions in real life. When you question its intent and say we should just ignore it, you should not be surprised that its purpose is stated to you.

You haven't pointed out anything that is wrong that isn't already being fixed. You've brought up problems that you were told were being fixed. You lied and said you did not dislike CAIN despite obviously disliking it.

I've responded to statements you've made in public and private with logical conclusions.

You say CAIN's leaders are self-centered egomaniacs, ergo, as CAIN's creator and informal leader, you say that I am a self-centered egomaniac.

You say that TGW is CAIN's puppet-master without proof, ergo I call your claims baseless.

You bring a problem to me that I tell you is fixed and then proceed to use it as campaign to destroy my creation, ergo I say that you have arterial motives.

You are the one that started this by being insulting, so let's calm down with the hypocritical faux outrage. You sling insults like the baseless claim that CAIN's leadership is made up of "self-centered egomaniacs" who are "strongly made up of those that are very closely associated with The Grey Wardens." You've thrown insults that CAIN has TGW as the "puppeteers of this coalition" without a shred of actual proof. You allege that we missed a proposal that we simply weren't contacted about because we were bus "too busy being exerted by their political puppet masters." You even went so far as to allege, without any proof whatsoever, that CAIN was being "used as a tool against Osiris."

I've worked with people that I cannot stand for this Coalition. I've worked with people my government believes are threats to every policy we hold. I've been more than willing to work with them when they've had problems that they want solved. I'd be more than willing to work with them again should that want to see things be better.

You don't want that. You want to throw around insults and use unsubstantiated reports and rumors to destroy something that you erroneously believe is controlled by TGW because two people insulted you over a single mission that failed. To me it appears that this isn't about making things better for CAIN or Osiris for you, it's about a personal vendetta and I'm not cool with ignoring that.

I'm also quite curious as to when I've ever attacked you on Discord. I've been nothing but nice, courteous, and open to you on Discord. I even messaged you to apologize for actions that weren't my own, apologized for getting to invested in an argument, and worked with you to gather evidence about the very insults that you are complaining about. Every single interaction I've had with you on Discord in private has been pleasant and I'm confused as to which ones in public haven't been the same.