[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
Moderator: Pharaoh
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
Statement on the CAIN treaty
The Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism (CAIN) is a multi-regional treaty that is hypothetically tasked with removing Nazis, "Nazi" regions, and designated Nazi collaborator regions. Osiris has been involved in this treaty since it passed the Council of Scribes in late October.
As a citizen of Osiris, as well as one that is popular in and familiar with the R/D sphere, I am going to provide my opinion on CAIN and why I believe we should repeal the CAIN treaty, thus removing us from the list of CAIN signatories as per Section 4(d) of the CAIN Treaty. I was originally impartial about it, yet I was leaning toward Osiris signing the CAIN treaty. CAIN has turned into a congregation of anti-Nazi leftists that like to use that ideology to politically strongarm signatories into participating in operations that they may have no desire to join in on, under the presage that they will be unofficially labeled as "Nazi Sympathizers".
Not only is CAIN being used as a political strongarm, it is being used as a tool to burden non-signatories into joining CAIN by harassing and insulting said non-signatories until they do it. But wait, there's more! From the viewpoint of certain unnamed CAIN participants, CAIN is being used by extremist military organizations (such as The Grey Wardens, a proscribed region of Osiris, and The Red Fleet) as an instrument to assist their operations and further their political and military influence, such as the Femdom Empire operation. Femdom Empire began as a Grey Warden operation, and they predictably failed. They quickly and unofficially brought in some other CAIN members, leading KAISERREICH (one of the main, yet debatable, Designated Nazi regions) to get involved due to a biased assumption by CAIN that KAISERREICH is a Nazi region. Their involvement is exactly what The Grey Wardens wanted, just so they could demand CAIN "superiors" to get the signatories tangled up in this utter failure of an operation. CAIN has yet to seize the region. Overall, there is no reason for CAIN to be there, and they only are since KAISERREICH is involved and apparently Femdom Empire is full of "Feminazis".
The problem here is that "feminazi" is just a term used by The Grey Wardens to label Femdom Empire in order to get CAIN involved. Sure, Jadny and her crew may be complete nuts, and possibly extreme feminists, but they are not Nazis. And now? CAIN is getting upset as even most of their members realize that this is a ridiculous operation that is an insult to an idea that had some potential, thus leading to some signatories choosing to not participate which just leaves them to be insulted by The Grey Wardens and The Red Fleet. Femdom Empire is not about fighting Nazis -- it is about doing a favor to The Grey Wardens by cleaning up their terrible, failed operation in a disorganized manner.
Dismally, Osiris along with the majority of CAIN signatories, did not surmise this disappointing outcome and poor organization of such embarrassing operations. It has come to my attention that thus far, the logic of CAIN is "in-game Nazis are idiots because RL Nazis did bad things and if you don't help us, you are an idiot". CAIN is losing whatever durability it initially had, and it is on the brink of collapse. Their leadership is strongly made up of those that are very closely associated with The Grey Wardens.
I'd finally like to point out the unseen enigma of CAIN. In data collected by General Ever-Wandering Souls of The Black Hawks, it is perceived that Nazi regions (especially Nazi Europa) have been gaining substantial population numbers owing to the attention that the arrival CAIN treaty is giving them.
Additionally, The Order of the Grey Wardens is on our Proscribed Regions and Organizations list (Article I, Section 3(6) of the Legal Code), and they are also a signatory of CAIN. When Cormac was Pharaoh, he stated that "the Legion will be permitted to work alongside any region or organization on either offensive or defensive operations against fascists, Nazis, and their collaborators, even if restrictions exist that would ordinarily prevent such cooperation.". Though Cormac may be my friend, I'll have to blatantly disagree. In order for Osiris to retain its regional sovereignty while participating in CAIN, we should only work with them inasmuch as the Grey Wardens are not participating. Disappointingly, that may not be an option, since they are the puppeteers of this coalition. If the legion wants to participate in operations against fascists, Nazis, and their collaborators, then by all means let's do it. But we should not do it with the Grey Wardens, an organization where leaders have openly stated that they would invade and destroy any raider region if they got the chance. Well, news flash, Osiris is a raider-aligned region with a military that raids. The Grey Wardens, an organization that seized and destroyed an ancient territory that was claimed by Osiris. I have, and will continue, to refuse participating in CAIN with a group that still poses a threat to Osiris, and a threat to our regional sovereignty.
While CAIN is busy failing at liberating Femdom Empire, there is a Nazi occupation happening elsewhere with a Security Council Liberation that just reached quorum within a few hours of ending thanks to Cormac's campaign telegram that he sent out. If CAIN was not led by a group of self-centered egomaniacs, then the proposal would have been noticed and would have safely reached quorum hours ago. Where is CAIN now? They must be too busy being exerted by their political puppet masters.
Though I do not, and will not, associate myself with real-life Nazis, nor do I sympathize them. I believe that the Nazis belong out of NationStates Gameplay and back in their nook of ambiguity where all abysmal extremists belong, yet they will refuse to by the virtue of the CAIN treaty. CAIN was a good idea, but seeing it grow has only resulted in a miserable failure and defeat to those actually wanting to remove Nazis from the game, and a triumphant victory for the Nazis and for the NSLeft as it has bestowed upon them an instrument that they may utilize to gain more support in operations that benefit themselves, thus bringing me to the point that CAIN has become exactly what it was initially created to overcome.
For all reasons incorporated, plus more, I assure you that CAIN is not of the majority's truest interests, and I will work to withdraw from CAIN is a very practical choice in order to prevent it from being further used as a tool against Osiris. Should the Council of Scribes choose not to repeal the CAIN treaty, Osiris will only abandon her regional sovereignty and the CAIN treaty will antagonistically affect us in our forthcoming endeavors. Should we take action by repealing the treaty and withdrawing, we should work with others with similar goals with the aim of methodically dissolving CAIN.
Chief Scribe of Osiris Please note that this is my opinion, and in no way do I speak for the rest of the government of the OFO.
The Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism (CAIN) is a multi-regional treaty that is hypothetically tasked with removing Nazis, "Nazi" regions, and designated Nazi collaborator regions. Osiris has been involved in this treaty since it passed the Council of Scribes in late October.
As a citizen of Osiris, as well as one that is popular in and familiar with the R/D sphere, I am going to provide my opinion on CAIN and why I believe we should repeal the CAIN treaty, thus removing us from the list of CAIN signatories as per Section 4(d) of the CAIN Treaty. I was originally impartial about it, yet I was leaning toward Osiris signing the CAIN treaty. CAIN has turned into a congregation of anti-Nazi leftists that like to use that ideology to politically strongarm signatories into participating in operations that they may have no desire to join in on, under the presage that they will be unofficially labeled as "Nazi Sympathizers".
Not only is CAIN being used as a political strongarm, it is being used as a tool to burden non-signatories into joining CAIN by harassing and insulting said non-signatories until they do it. But wait, there's more! From the viewpoint of certain unnamed CAIN participants, CAIN is being used by extremist military organizations (such as The Grey Wardens, a proscribed region of Osiris, and The Red Fleet) as an instrument to assist their operations and further their political and military influence, such as the Femdom Empire operation. Femdom Empire began as a Grey Warden operation, and they predictably failed. They quickly and unofficially brought in some other CAIN members, leading KAISERREICH (one of the main, yet debatable, Designated Nazi regions) to get involved due to a biased assumption by CAIN that KAISERREICH is a Nazi region. Their involvement is exactly what The Grey Wardens wanted, just so they could demand CAIN "superiors" to get the signatories tangled up in this utter failure of an operation. CAIN has yet to seize the region. Overall, there is no reason for CAIN to be there, and they only are since KAISERREICH is involved and apparently Femdom Empire is full of "Feminazis".
The problem here is that "feminazi" is just a term used by The Grey Wardens to label Femdom Empire in order to get CAIN involved. Sure, Jadny and her crew may be complete nuts, and possibly extreme feminists, but they are not Nazis. And now? CAIN is getting upset as even most of their members realize that this is a ridiculous operation that is an insult to an idea that had some potential, thus leading to some signatories choosing to not participate which just leaves them to be insulted by The Grey Wardens and The Red Fleet. Femdom Empire is not about fighting Nazis -- it is about doing a favor to The Grey Wardens by cleaning up their terrible, failed operation in a disorganized manner.
Dismally, Osiris along with the majority of CAIN signatories, did not surmise this disappointing outcome and poor organization of such embarrassing operations. It has come to my attention that thus far, the logic of CAIN is "in-game Nazis are idiots because RL Nazis did bad things and if you don't help us, you are an idiot". CAIN is losing whatever durability it initially had, and it is on the brink of collapse. Their leadership is strongly made up of those that are very closely associated with The Grey Wardens.
I'd finally like to point out the unseen enigma of CAIN. In data collected by General Ever-Wandering Souls of The Black Hawks, it is perceived that Nazi regions (especially Nazi Europa) have been gaining substantial population numbers owing to the attention that the arrival CAIN treaty is giving them.
Additionally, The Order of the Grey Wardens is on our Proscribed Regions and Organizations list (Article I, Section 3(6) of the Legal Code), and they are also a signatory of CAIN. When Cormac was Pharaoh, he stated that "the Legion will be permitted to work alongside any region or organization on either offensive or defensive operations against fascists, Nazis, and their collaborators, even if restrictions exist that would ordinarily prevent such cooperation.". Though Cormac may be my friend, I'll have to blatantly disagree. In order for Osiris to retain its regional sovereignty while participating in CAIN, we should only work with them inasmuch as the Grey Wardens are not participating. Disappointingly, that may not be an option, since they are the puppeteers of this coalition. If the legion wants to participate in operations against fascists, Nazis, and their collaborators, then by all means let's do it. But we should not do it with the Grey Wardens, an organization where leaders have openly stated that they would invade and destroy any raider region if they got the chance. Well, news flash, Osiris is a raider-aligned region with a military that raids. The Grey Wardens, an organization that seized and destroyed an ancient territory that was claimed by Osiris. I have, and will continue, to refuse participating in CAIN with a group that still poses a threat to Osiris, and a threat to our regional sovereignty.
While CAIN is busy failing at liberating Femdom Empire, there is a Nazi occupation happening elsewhere with a Security Council Liberation that just reached quorum within a few hours of ending thanks to Cormac's campaign telegram that he sent out. If CAIN was not led by a group of self-centered egomaniacs, then the proposal would have been noticed and would have safely reached quorum hours ago. Where is CAIN now? They must be too busy being exerted by their political puppet masters.
Though I do not, and will not, associate myself with real-life Nazis, nor do I sympathize them. I believe that the Nazis belong out of NationStates Gameplay and back in their nook of ambiguity where all abysmal extremists belong, yet they will refuse to by the virtue of the CAIN treaty. CAIN was a good idea, but seeing it grow has only resulted in a miserable failure and defeat to those actually wanting to remove Nazis from the game, and a triumphant victory for the Nazis and for the NSLeft as it has bestowed upon them an instrument that they may utilize to gain more support in operations that benefit themselves, thus bringing me to the point that CAIN has become exactly what it was initially created to overcome.
For all reasons incorporated, plus more, I assure you that CAIN is not of the majority's truest interests, and I will work to withdraw from CAIN is a very practical choice in order to prevent it from being further used as a tool against Osiris. Should the Council of Scribes choose not to repeal the CAIN treaty, Osiris will only abandon her regional sovereignty and the CAIN treaty will antagonistically affect us in our forthcoming endeavors. Should we take action by repealing the treaty and withdrawing, we should work with others with similar goals with the aim of methodically dissolving CAIN.
Chief Scribe of Osiris Please note that this is my opinion, and in no way do I speak for the rest of the government of the OFO.
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[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
As you are well aware, everything that you posted in these logs has been dealt with. While I do not agree with TBH's decision to become non-involved, it is their right and it is one that CAIN will respect moving forward. This was addressed in the following conversation I had with you:Not only is CAIN being used as a political strongarm, it is being used as a tool to burden non-signatories into joining CAIN by harassing and insulting said non-signatories until they do it. But wait, there's more! From the viewpoint of certain unnamed CAIN participants, CAIN is being used by extremist military organizations (such as The Grey Wardens, a proscribed region of Osiris, and The Red Fleet) as an instrument to assist their operations and further their political and military influence, such as the Femdom Empire operation.
Spoiler
Brunhilde - Last Thursday at 9:03 PM
Hola
oh, you're doing a show. I'll wait
Sygian - Last Thursday at 9:08 PM
No, I'm here!
NWB is Tuesdays.
To what do I owe the pleasure?
Brunhilde - Last Thursday at 9:34 PM
Sorry, was typing
Sygian - Last Thursday at 9:43 PM
No worries
Brunhilde - Last Thursday at 9:43 PM
Anywho! I talked to TGW and Misley. Apologies if you've felt like you've been harrassed because of CAIN. I'd like to be able to avoid such issues in the future and that means that we'll have to work to generally not be assholes to each other where CAIN is concerned.
Sygian - Last Thursday at 9:44 PM
Thanks Brunhilde
Hola
oh, you're doing a show. I'll wait
Sygian - Last Thursday at 9:08 PM
No, I'm here!
NWB is Tuesdays.
To what do I owe the pleasure?
Brunhilde - Last Thursday at 9:34 PM
Sorry, was typing
Sygian - Last Thursday at 9:43 PM
No worries
Brunhilde - Last Thursday at 9:43 PM
Anywho! I talked to TGW and Misley. Apologies if you've felt like you've been harrassed because of CAIN. I'd like to be able to avoid such issues in the future and that means that we'll have to work to generally not be assholes to each other where CAIN is concerned.
Sygian - Last Thursday at 9:44 PM
Thanks Brunhilde
Femdom Empire did not become a target because they were "Feminazis" and that has never been the stated objective of the operation. Femdom Empire received the assistance of not only KAISERREICH but also from Nazi Europa(with even NE's delegate resigning to participate). Per the definitions of the treaty, and really anything, military cooperation constitutes Collaboration. For this reason, Femdom Empire was a valid target. On multiple occasions, CAIN (with the help of The Pacific) attempted to take the region because of its obvious status as a Collaborator. However, due to the occupying force's use of a script provided to them by a DOS player(a fact confirmed by said DOS player) they were able to repeatedly ban invading forces at a perfect, never failing, 1 second-1 ban rate. In short, the invasion was not ideal but it did not fail because of CAIN's disinterest. It failed because CAIN was opposing an entrenched force using a script that gave them an unnatural advantage.Femdom Empire began as a Grey Warden operation, and they predictably failed. They quickly and unofficially brought in some other CAIN members, leading KAISERREICH (one of the main, yet debatable, Designated Nazi regions) to get involved due to a biased assumption by CAIN that KAISERREICH is a Nazi region. Their involvement is exactly what The Grey Wardens wanted, just so they could demand CAIN "superiors" to get the signatories tangled up in this utter failure of an operation. CAIN has yet to seize the region. Overall, there is no reason for CAIN to be there, and they only are since KAISERREICH is involved and apparently Femdom Empire is full of "Feminazis".
While the situation exposed a flaw with CAIN, it is a flaw that can and is being addressed. CAIN is currently seeking to provide a more structured approach to joint operations that will eliminate such issues. To go along with it, we are currently looking to institute chat rules that would be enforced to limit fighting and insulting.
.Dismally, Osiris along with the majority of CAIN signatories, did not surmise this disappointing outcome and poor organization of such embarrassing operations.
Drafting with 36 regions over two weeks leads to a bit of a burn out and, while things are certainly not perfect, they can be fixed. Rather than throw away what might not work, we can fix it and that's exactly what signatories are attempting to do now.
The logic of CAIN is that in-game Nazis are "idiots" because they promote, or lessen, an ideology meant to marginalize people for the circumstances of their birth. Some members of CAIN, which you encountered, believe that to say you won't fight an ideology that would slaughter some of your members for their sexuality or their ethnicity because you don't want to work with defenders or raiders is a bit silly. As has been said before, this is being rectified and is currently lookingIt has come to my attention that thus far, the logic of CAIN is "in-game Nazis are idiots because RL Nazis did bad things and if you don't help us, you are an idiot".
CAIN is losing whatever durability it initially had, and it is on the brink of collapse.
CAIN certainly has its issues. The recent operation displayed a design flaw that wasn't seen at the start but the representatives, your own included, are looking to solve this issue.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. TGW has one representative in CAIN signatories and two in the military leaders chat. Roavin is counted as a military leader of TSP, though he also counts. They have no more or less leadership in CAIN than any other signatory and have, in fact, been on the losing side of more arguments and votes than most other regions.Their leadership is strongly made up of those that are very closely associated with The Grey Wardens
Of course, if you're referring to me then it's just indicative that you don't know what you're talking about. The extent of my involvement with TGW is playing Overwatch with Altmoras, Green (from LWU), and Birdkeeper once in a blue moon. I'm masked a Darkspawn as a Wolf of LWU in their Discord and have never been involved in any Non-CAIN operation alongside of them.
The founding principle of CAIN was a desire to put aside gameplay differences in order to oppose an ideology that has no place in our community. The hate that it causes is bigger than our gameplay divides and that is why Osiris, and other regions, decided to put aside their differences to fight it. As stated in the treaty, it is not indicative of "political, diplomatic, or gameplay agreement with their fellow signatories except on the subject of Nazism and Nazi Regions."Additionally, The Order of the Grey Wardens is on our Proscribed Regions and Organizations list (Article I, Section 3(6) of the Legal Code), and they are also a signatory of CAIN. When Cormac was Pharaoh, he stated that "the Legion will be permitted to work alongside any region or organization on either offensive or defensive operations against fascists, Nazis, and their collaborators, even if restrictions exist that would ordinarily prevent such cooperation.
Again, no they're not. They've been on the losing side of too many debates, decisions, and votes for this to be true. There are no "puppeteers" of this Coalition and to say so is to make a baseless accusation without an ounce of knowledge. An accusation made not because of information but by hatred for another gameplay ideology.Disappointingly, that may not be an option, since they are the puppeteers of this coalition.
Yes, how dare I miss a Security Council liberation proposal while worrying about my friend in a coma and my swollen, possibly infected broken hand? I must really be a "self-centered egomaniac" otherwise I'd have noticed.While CAIN is busy failing at liberating Femdom Empire, there is a Nazi occupation happening elsewhere with a Security Council Liberation that just reached quorum within a few hours of ending thanks to Cormac's campaign telegram that he sent out. If CAIN was not led by a group of self-centered egomaniacs, then the proposal would have been noticed and would have safely reached quorum hours ago. Where is CAIN now? They must be too busy being exerted by their political puppet masters.
CAIN has not, and will not, be used as a "tool against Osiris." None of the nonsense you've spewed here, or provided links to, have indicated that Osiris has been unfairly targeted. Rather, they indicate that Misley and Tim said some things about you and TBH that hurt your feelings. Or perhaps it's just because one group of defenders that you don't like are in it and, rather than put aside your R/D ideology to fight hate, you'd rather throw around baseless accusations to discredit CAIN for including them.For all reasons incorporated, plus more, I assure you that CAIN is not of the majority's truest interests, and I will work to withdraw from CAIN is a very practical choice in order to prevent it from being further used as a tool against Osiris.
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
I agree with Brunhilde on almost everything, and would like to restate this:
Drafting with 36 regions over two weeks leads to a bit of a burn out and, while things are certainly not perfect, they can be fixed. Rather than throw away what might not work, we can fix it and that's exactly what signatories are attempting to do now.
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[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
It seems to me that the problems you've outlined, even if as serious as characterized, would be better solved while remaining a member of CAIN rather than leaving. The region is, after all, committed to fighting against Nazism in NationStates. This isn't to say that it doesn't deserve revisiting down the line if these problems remain unresolved, mind you... but jumping immediately to repeal seems like dramatic overreaction.
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
I'll weigh in on this, since I have been somewhat critical of CAIN. The long and short of it, for anyone who doesn't feel like reading a lengthy post, is that I agree CAIN has had flaws and failings, though I do not agree with Sygian's complete assessment. I do not, however, support withdrawal from CAIN, and would instead prefer to see Osiris taking a more active role in CAIN.
And now for the lengthy post to more clearly explain my position.
When one talks about the flaws and failings of CAIN, what one is really talking about are the flaws and failings of CAIN's signatory regions. Unlike past organizations like the ADN, the FRA, SovCon, etc., CAIN does not have a formal organizational leadership like an Arch-Chancellor or a Secretary-General. Brunhilde has been acting as informal leadership to deal with administrative issues, but CAIN has been too reliant on her, and participants in its signatory regions have too quickly pushed blame for CAIN's flaws and failings onto her or onto "CAIN" as if it is this foreign leviathan over which they have no control. CAIN is nothing more nor less than its signatory regions and the representatives they dispatch to represent them within CAIN. Signatory regions determine the direction of CAIN. Signatory regions are responsible for the flaws and failings of CAIN, and only signatory regions can repair flaws and ensure failings do not occur in the future.
When we talk about the Red Fleet, the Grey Wardens, or whoever having too much of a voice in CAIN -- a problem that is probably exaggerated -- what we are really talking about is other signatory regions, including Osiris, not sufficiently using their equal voice in CAIN.
When we talk about CAIN being too focused on a specific operation, such as Femdom Empire, what we are really talking about is signatory regions, including Osiris, not pushing CAIN to focus less on that specific operation and more on the bigger picture.
When we talk about CAIN failing to act against the Nazi invasion of The Arab League, what we are really talking about is signatory regions, including Osiris, failing to take any initiative to act against that invasion either militarily or in the Security Council.
When we talk about CAIN not being publicly transparent enough -- a problem that Brunhilde has worked to remedy in her informal capacity -- what we are really talking about is signatory regions, including Osiris, not pushing for more transparency, and signatory representatives failing to be more transparent with citizens or equivalent participants in their regions.
When we talk about certain signatory regions having problems with how CAIN is functioning and CAIN being "on the brink of collapse" -- which is a grossly exaggerated concern -- what we are really talking about is signatory regions complaining behind the scenes about problems only they can resolve, rather than working in good faith with other signatory regions to actually resolve them.
When we talk about CAIN, we are talking about its signatory regions, because CAIN is nothing more than a cooperative effort of its signatory regions. There is no CAIN "over there," there is only CAIN right here, and in the governments of other signatory regions. We are responsible for CAIN. The flaws and failings of CAIN belong as much to us as they belong to anyone else.
The biggest problem facing CAIN, at present, is that a number of signatory regions have ratified the charter and, having ratified the charter, have basically walked away except to stroll back in and occasionally cast a vote. That isn't how interregional cooperation on a massive multilateral effort like this works. It takes time, it takes focus, it takes work. If all signatory representatives aren't actively participating, those who are will seem to have more of a voice. The solution to that is for more signatory representatives to actively participate. If all signatory military forces aren't actively participating, those who are will be making more operational decisions. The solution to that is for more signatory military forces to actively participate.
So, to conclude, what I propose is that rather than withdrawing from CAIN, Osiris needs to actually commit to it. We need to be more actively involved, and a good start to that would be for the Pharaoh or Chief Vizier, depending on which of them is now representing us to CAIN after the constitutional revision, to delegate our representation within CAIN to someone specifically tasked with representing us. They are too busy with the ship of state and the machinery of government, in their totality, to be all that active as representatives to CAIN. Another good start would be for the Legion to be actually participating in CAIN operations, something I don't think has occurred since The NSIA operation.
Take that advice or leave it, but what we absolutely shouldn't do is what we have so often done in the past, which is keep one foot out the door ready to bolt at the first sign of trouble. PSSP, SovCon, the Lazarus war, ISRA, various bilateral alliances, all initiatives to which we have enthusiastically committed, only to abandon, declare irredeemable, and insist were mistakes -- always someone else's mistakes, never the entire community's -- from the very beginning. We have always backed away from our foreign affairs commitments at the first sign of trouble, the first indication that it might take some effort on our part. Let's not add CAIN to that list and let's instead break that cycle, because every time we tuck tail and run from commitments we've made, it makes us look ridiculous.
And now for the lengthy post to more clearly explain my position.
When one talks about the flaws and failings of CAIN, what one is really talking about are the flaws and failings of CAIN's signatory regions. Unlike past organizations like the ADN, the FRA, SovCon, etc., CAIN does not have a formal organizational leadership like an Arch-Chancellor or a Secretary-General. Brunhilde has been acting as informal leadership to deal with administrative issues, but CAIN has been too reliant on her, and participants in its signatory regions have too quickly pushed blame for CAIN's flaws and failings onto her or onto "CAIN" as if it is this foreign leviathan over which they have no control. CAIN is nothing more nor less than its signatory regions and the representatives they dispatch to represent them within CAIN. Signatory regions determine the direction of CAIN. Signatory regions are responsible for the flaws and failings of CAIN, and only signatory regions can repair flaws and ensure failings do not occur in the future.
When we talk about the Red Fleet, the Grey Wardens, or whoever having too much of a voice in CAIN -- a problem that is probably exaggerated -- what we are really talking about is other signatory regions, including Osiris, not sufficiently using their equal voice in CAIN.
When we talk about CAIN being too focused on a specific operation, such as Femdom Empire, what we are really talking about is signatory regions, including Osiris, not pushing CAIN to focus less on that specific operation and more on the bigger picture.
When we talk about CAIN failing to act against the Nazi invasion of The Arab League, what we are really talking about is signatory regions, including Osiris, failing to take any initiative to act against that invasion either militarily or in the Security Council.
When we talk about CAIN not being publicly transparent enough -- a problem that Brunhilde has worked to remedy in her informal capacity -- what we are really talking about is signatory regions, including Osiris, not pushing for more transparency, and signatory representatives failing to be more transparent with citizens or equivalent participants in their regions.
When we talk about certain signatory regions having problems with how CAIN is functioning and CAIN being "on the brink of collapse" -- which is a grossly exaggerated concern -- what we are really talking about is signatory regions complaining behind the scenes about problems only they can resolve, rather than working in good faith with other signatory regions to actually resolve them.
When we talk about CAIN, we are talking about its signatory regions, because CAIN is nothing more than a cooperative effort of its signatory regions. There is no CAIN "over there," there is only CAIN right here, and in the governments of other signatory regions. We are responsible for CAIN. The flaws and failings of CAIN belong as much to us as they belong to anyone else.
The biggest problem facing CAIN, at present, is that a number of signatory regions have ratified the charter and, having ratified the charter, have basically walked away except to stroll back in and occasionally cast a vote. That isn't how interregional cooperation on a massive multilateral effort like this works. It takes time, it takes focus, it takes work. If all signatory representatives aren't actively participating, those who are will seem to have more of a voice. The solution to that is for more signatory representatives to actively participate. If all signatory military forces aren't actively participating, those who are will be making more operational decisions. The solution to that is for more signatory military forces to actively participate.
So, to conclude, what I propose is that rather than withdrawing from CAIN, Osiris needs to actually commit to it. We need to be more actively involved, and a good start to that would be for the Pharaoh or Chief Vizier, depending on which of them is now representing us to CAIN after the constitutional revision, to delegate our representation within CAIN to someone specifically tasked with representing us. They are too busy with the ship of state and the machinery of government, in their totality, to be all that active as representatives to CAIN. Another good start would be for the Legion to be actually participating in CAIN operations, something I don't think has occurred since The NSIA operation.
Take that advice or leave it, but what we absolutely shouldn't do is what we have so often done in the past, which is keep one foot out the door ready to bolt at the first sign of trouble. PSSP, SovCon, the Lazarus war, ISRA, various bilateral alliances, all initiatives to which we have enthusiastically committed, only to abandon, declare irredeemable, and insist were mistakes -- always someone else's mistakes, never the entire community's -- from the very beginning. We have always backed away from our foreign affairs commitments at the first sign of trouble, the first indication that it might take some effort on our part. Let's not add CAIN to that list and let's instead break that cycle, because every time we tuck tail and run from commitments we've made, it makes us look ridiculous.
His Majesty Cormac Skollvaldr
Bru'uh of Osiris - Co-Founder of the Osiris Fraternal Order
Hasal-Pharaoh of Osiris (3x)
Khetemtai in the House of Osiris
"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves, "Follow Your Arrow"
Bru'uh of Osiris - Co-Founder of the Osiris Fraternal Order
Hasal-Pharaoh of Osiris (3x)
Khetemtai in the House of Osiris
"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves, "Follow Your Arrow"
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
So you think I'm just pulling this term out of my ass? It's been said multiple times in the CAIN discord server, labeling Femdom Empire as such.Femdom Empire did not become a target because they were "Feminazis" and that has never been the stated objective of the operation.
Either way, you can fit Nazi Europa into my sentence and it still reads the same.Femdom Empire received the assistance of not only KAISERREICH but also from Nazi Europa(with even NE's delegate resigning to participate).
CAIN is taking this long to address this simple of a situation and figure it out? Odd, because the only responses I, and others, have gotten is "this situation is being addressed."While the situation exposed a flaw with CAIN, it is a flaw that can and is being addressed.
It will not work in the long run, I can tell you that right now. All I'm hearing is that the signatories are attempting another fix, but I've yet to see one.Drafting with 36 regions over two weeks leads to a bit of a burn out and, while things are certainly not perfect, they can be fixed. Rather than throw away what might not work, we can fix it and that's exactly what signatories are attempting to do now.
I really hate to point this out, but you aren't going to remove Nazis from a game. They will always be there, whether you like it or not. It may be a kid that gets turned on by roleplaying as a Nazi, or it may be a real-life member of a Neo-Nazi organinzation. Regardless, "Nazis" will be in the game until it is an in-game rule, and even then they'll still be here. CAIN only puts them in the spotlight and gives them the attention that they so badly want, the attention that they are so unaccustomed to. For one that ever so dearly wants to get rid of Nazis, your idea sure is doing the opposite.The logic of CAIN is that in-game Nazis are idiots because they promote, or lessen, an ideology meant to marginalize people for the circumstances of their birth. Some members of CAIN, which you encountered, believe that to say you won't fight an ideology that would slaughter some of your members for their sexuality or their ethnicity because you don't want to work with defenders or raiders is a bit silly. As has been said before, this is being rectified and is currently looking
I said in the Discord, and I'll say it again. I have never even set foot on the forums that CAIN voting takes place, because I don't have the desire to. All I can see, from a public standpoint, is that The Grey Wardens are using CAIN to clean up their clusterfuck of a mess because they can't do it themselves.I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. TGW has one representative in CAIN signatories and two in the military leaders chat. Roavin is counted as a military leader of TSP, though he also counts. They have no more or less leadership in CAIN than any other signatory and have, in fact, been on the losing side of more arguments and votes than most other regions.
I happen to be friends with a few members of The Grey Wardens, so accusing me of "hating" their ideology is very extreme and quite uncalled for. Has the thought ever even crossed your mind that maybe some of us just want to play the game and not be involved in this mess? Explain to me why I now have "baseless" accusations, when it is obvious (and public) information that The Grey Wardens were there first, and this is just a "cleanup on aisle FE".Again, no they're not. They've been on the losing side of too many debates, decisions, and votes for this to be true. There are no "puppeteers" of this Coalition and to say so is to make a baseless accusation without an ounce of knowledge. An accusation made not because of information but by hatred for another gameplay ideology.
I am appalled that you even took the time to type this straight insult to my character. I, in no way at all, am blaming this on you. Now that is a baseless accusation. If none of CAIN cared enough to mention the proposal, that's their fault. Not your broken hand.Yes, how dare I miss a Security Council liberation proposal while worrying about my friend in a coma and my swollen, possibly infected broken hand? I must really be a "self-centered egomaniac" otherwise I'd have noticed.
I understand that you will fight tooth and nail to keep CAIN alive, and I don't expect any less, but you have got to see that not only has CAIN benefited its enemies more, it has also put them in the spotlight where they will remain, arrogant as can be. So far, CAIN has not solved any major problems affecting it today. If you are going to use the "burn out" excuse, then maybe you shouldn't have drafted a treaty with so many signatories in an attempt to remove an ideology that will always be there. Before CAIN, Nazis only came out to play occasionally because they were usually ignored, but now that they have a coalition that is trying to intimidate them by calling out their abominable ideology, they are now going to stay out because now they have something to do. As long as we keep giving them something to fight and something to contend in Gameplay, they're not going away.
In a hypothetical situation where we somehow manage to destroy a large designated Nazi Region (Kaiserreich, Nazi Europa), they are just going to move somewhere else. Unless you remove the player from the game, or convince them that what they're doing is "hateful" and "wrong" (the latter would be less uncomplicated from what I've seen), they will just create another Nazi region/organization. The only way we can achieve exactly what CAIN wants to accomplish is if we just ignore them and leave them to do whatever the hell they want in their Nazi circle jerk in their "nook of ambiguity where all abysmal extremists belong."
To respond to Cormac's post.. CAIN is made up of the signatory regions so what you've basically said is almost precisely what I said.
We will look ridiculous in the long run when we continue to fail because CAIN has literally no plan to achieve their goal. Or at least not a plan that is public among signatories. We may initially look ridiculous by withdrawing, but once this blows over we will be appraised and felicitated for making the smart decision. Making a statement. Standing up for our regional sovereignty, and standing up against the "Nazi threat" by ignoring them thus shoving them back into their corner.Let's not add CAIN to that list and let's instead break that cycle, because every time we tuck tail and run from commitments we've made, it makes us look ridiculous.
Sub-Vizier of Foreign Affairs
Patriarch of House Akhenaten
Baron of Koptos
Spoiler
Guardian
Chief Vizier
Chief Scribe
Vizier of WA Affairs (2x)
Forum Administrator
Chief Vizier
Chief Scribe
Vizier of WA Affairs (2x)
Forum Administrator
Spoiler
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
This is the only point I'm going to respond to, because the rest would just be restating what I've already said.Sygian wrote:Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:03 pmand standing up against the "Nazi threat" by ignoring them thus shoving them back into their corner.
Were Nazi Europa, et al. particularly inactive prior to CAIN? They weren't "into their corner," they were busy invading regions and becoming one of the largest regions in NationStates. This was going on while mainstream gameplay blissfully ignored them except to occasionally pass a last minute liberation resolution to stop them from completely destroying a region. What you're advocating is not ignoring the problem until it goes away, it's really ignoring the problem until we all forget about it. That may not be your intent -- I'm not questioning your motives -- but that will be the end result. The Nazis don't just stop invading and destroying regions, and ruining this game for other players who shouldn't have to be bullied and trolled by Nazis, when we ignore them. They just keep doing it, unobstructed.
I don't understand players who decide to put R/D issues ahead of that issue, but I'm not going to tell you not to do it. That's up to you. Just don't ask everyone else to do the same, some of us find beating back Nazis who are trolling other players a more worthy and fulfilling use of our time than the petty bullshit that is mainstream R/D.
His Majesty Cormac Skollvaldr
Bru'uh of Osiris - Co-Founder of the Osiris Fraternal Order
Hasal-Pharaoh of Osiris (3x)
Khetemtai in the House of Osiris
"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves, "Follow Your Arrow"
Bru'uh of Osiris - Co-Founder of the Osiris Fraternal Order
Hasal-Pharaoh of Osiris (3x)
Khetemtai in the House of Osiris
"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves, "Follow Your Arrow"
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
Your argument that "Nazis are OOC bullies for spreading and recruiting for an ideology via raiding" will just turn into "raiders are OOC bullies for spreading and recruiting for an ideology via raiding" because that's exactly what is raiders do. Raiders ruin and "troll" this game for natives, I have done it a countless number of times. Sorry, but I'm not playing this game to remove an "OOC threat", I'm playing it to play it. CAIN only gives the Nazis one more thing to screw around with and laugh at. Once again, we can't stop them.
Take a look at Vaclav Vinograd. He was quietly removed from most, if not all, regions he was an active member of. I am just stating what I think is best for Osiris, and that is to not get involved in the "petty bullshit" that is mainstream politics in CAIN.
Edit: added stuff
Take a look at Vaclav Vinograd. He was quietly removed from most, if not all, regions he was an active member of. I am just stating what I think is best for Osiris, and that is to not get involved in the "petty bullshit" that is mainstream politics in CAIN.
Edit: added stuff
Sub-Vizier of Foreign Affairs
Patriarch of House Akhenaten
Baron of Koptos
Spoiler
Guardian
Chief Vizier
Chief Scribe
Vizier of WA Affairs (2x)
Forum Administrator
Chief Vizier
Chief Scribe
Vizier of WA Affairs (2x)
Forum Administrator
Spoiler
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
The difference between Nazi invasions and mainstream raiding should be fairly obvious: Mainstream raiders aren't promoting an OOC ideology that has, at its core, hatred of and violence against people based on their immutable characteristics.
If you believe you're behaving like a Nazi troll when you raid, though, perhaps you should stop. I, however, don't believe that.
Again, you're welcome to play the game however you want. If you prefer to ignore OOC bullying and focus on R/D, go for it. Nobody is forcing you to participate in CAIN. What you are doing is trying to persuade Osiris to conform to your views, with arguments that have little merit and don't withstand the slightest scrutiny, when we have already made a commitment to a different view.
If you believe you're behaving like a Nazi troll when you raid, though, perhaps you should stop. I, however, don't believe that.
Again, you're welcome to play the game however you want. If you prefer to ignore OOC bullying and focus on R/D, go for it. Nobody is forcing you to participate in CAIN. What you are doing is trying to persuade Osiris to conform to your views, with arguments that have little merit and don't withstand the slightest scrutiny, when we have already made a commitment to a different view.
His Majesty Cormac Skollvaldr
Bru'uh of Osiris - Co-Founder of the Osiris Fraternal Order
Hasal-Pharaoh of Osiris (3x)
Khetemtai in the House of Osiris
"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves, "Follow Your Arrow"
Bru'uh of Osiris - Co-Founder of the Osiris Fraternal Order
Hasal-Pharaoh of Osiris (3x)
Khetemtai in the House of Osiris
"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves, "Follow Your Arrow"
[Proposal] Repeal of CAIN Treaty
CAIN is taking this long to address this simple of a situation and figure it out? Odd, because the only responses I, and others, have gotten is "this situation is being addressed."
It will not work in the long run, I can tell you that right now. All I'm hearing is that the signatories are attempting another fix, but I've yet to see one.
You admit that you have no insider knowledge into the inter-workings of CAIN and yet you allege that TGW is somehow the puppet master of our Coalition.I said in the Discord, and I'll say it again. I have never even set foot on the forums that CAIN voting takes place, because I don't have the desire to. All I can see, from a public standpoint, is that The Grey Wardens are using CAIN to clean up their clusterfuck of a mess because they can't do it themselves.
The Coalition has a private forum to discuss amendments, votes, and military happenings. In these private forums, an amendment is being worked on to fix the issues you have mentioned. It is not public because it is not finished and it's not finished because making an entirely new section to fix a problem like this one takes more than one person writing some amendments.
Yes, a few people called them Feminazis. The operation, however, is not in any way because of that designation. The operation started because they possess a very obvious connection, in the form of military collaboration with two Nazi Regions, to Nazism. Nothing more, nothing less. While this connection came from a convoluted situation, there was a connect and that's why it was acted against.So you think I'm just pulling this term out of my ass? It's been said multiple times in the CAIN discord server, labeling Femdom Empire as such.
I believe that the main issue with it is not the operation itself but who led it to begin with.
I am the only perceivable leader of CAIN in the eyes of most. When you call CAIN's leaders "self-centered egomaniacs" how is that not a baseless, rude insult to my character?I am appalled that you even took the time to type this straight insult to my character. I, in no way at all, am blaming this on you. Now that is a baseless accusation. If none of CAIN cared enough to mention the proposal, that's their fault. Not your broken hand.
Yes, Vaclav Vinograd was quite the victim. There's no way he did anything worthy of being pushed away.Take a look at Vaclav Vinograd. He was quietly removed from most, if not all, regions he was an active member of.