Osiris Fraternal Order

Noting that the minimum discussion period has elapsed, I move for a vote.

There are a few comments I wish to make first off, if members can indulge me.

I'll start by stating that in future, I am hopeful that representatives from our region to interregional bodies can do better communication work with regards to the activities of the interregional bodies and any and all changes to the organization in question. Our participation in such organizations depends on our knowledge of their activities and how we relate to them. This is not merely a CAIN issue, but also our de facto alliances with our fellow raider regions or with our accord with sovereign GCRs. We need to do better to make sure that Osirans feel included in such ventures.

Now, to the meat and potatoes of this discussion. We're at a crossroads as to what we want CAIN to do. We're unsure about what CAIN should be and by extension, our own involvement in the group.

As someone who has been involved in interregional bureaucracy as Deputy Director of RLA Intelligence and as a representative of my region to the Central Soviet of the Red Liberty Alliance, I always found that interregional links over a common cause gave us more power, rather than less. In my case, we were a leftist defender organization which constantly battled the "raider menace" (no offence) but whom also worked to ensure that our rivals in the ADN were not manipulating and destroying the independence of the GCRs at the time. In complex times, interregional organizations can provide many blessings and opportunities to both small and large regions by providing the means of communication along with sharing of resources.

I agree that a structural construct established by humans can be corrupted and manipulated. Nothing is perfect, after all. We have seen both the good and bad of how interregional organizations, and as often put here in this chamber the SovCon is now the example of the way not to go.

When it comes to CAIN, as a legislator of a signatory region I want more accountability about its activities. Personally, I barely have any awareness of what it's up to beyond the drama llama (which I ignore) posted in GP. I care not for it. What I want to see is the Osiran commitment to the ideals of this organization to be carried out faithfully and for our own regional interests to be maintained.

With a formalized structure, we know exactly who is in charge and who to talk to. We know who to address our concerns and take our issues to. This will no longer be a group de facto run by a small group of individuals with no accountability. With formality and structure, we know what the rules are and are able to hold the future leadership of the organization to account if they act in ways that we, as Osirans, believe are against our interests.

While reading the text of the amendments, the main pressing issue I have is the position of Europeia in this organization. I'd prefer to have CAIN based on a neutral site and not directly on the Europeian board on a matter of principle. They are a great region and have been a great host for the organization thusfar, but if CAIN wishes to expand, than we must have a CAIN-based board to host discussions and votes.

I believe that we are better served by being part of one of the largest interregional organization in years than being outside of it. I am concerned about some of the rollout of this amendment and there are concerns I have about some specifics. Yet, I do not wish to completely derail our prospects of membership over fluff. As we are wanting to be active members in interregional activities, we can't simply show the world the middle finger every time we get mildly upset when things at first don't seem to be going exactly the way we want it.

Cheers.

I second the move to vote.

Scribes are advised that a vote has been presented to the floor of this council.

Dalimbar wrote:Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:04 pmI believe that we are better served by being part of one of the largest interregional organization in years than being outside of it. I am concerned about some of the rollout of this amendment and there are concerns I have about some specifics. Yet, I do not wish to completely derail our prospects of membership over fluff. As we are wanting to be active members in interregional activities, we can't simply show the world the middle finger every time we get mildly upset when things at first don't seem to be going exactly the way we want it.

You of all people, given your time, experience, and skill in this game, know how difficult it is to effect change in an interregional organization once an entrenched bureaucracy has already been established. Saying we can fix these issues later, or that we can just leave if we want, ignores the political transformation that occurs as result of entrenched interregional bureaucracy.

If you've ever watched citizens of Lazarus or The Rejected Realms propose leaving the FRA, and then watched them get completely shut down by other citizens whose primary affiliation and loyalty is not to Lazarus or TRR but rather to the FRA elite, you know what I'm talking about here. Once a number of our citizens get sucked into this bureaucracy, and once citizens of other signatory regions who are involved in the bureaucracy start "cross-pollinating," we will never be able to effect change within CAIN, and we certainly won't be able to leave it. That's how elite interregional bureaucracy works.

Given you've had particularly bad experiences, I understand your concerns. However, as a member of RLA I was able under my particular department to make substantial improvements in that organization. I can't obviously speak for FRA or UDL, as they were organizations which I regarded with hostility.

Dalimbar wrote:Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:00 amGiven you've had particularly bad experiences, I understand your concerns. However, as a member of RLA I was able under my particular department to make substantial improvements in that organization. I can't obviously speak for FRA or UDL, as they were organizations which I regarded with hostility.

But ultimately the RLA authorized forum destruction in the name of The Cause, and not only did it collapse as a result, but so did almost all of its signatory regions. One still stands condemned by the Security Council to this day. I'm honestly not sure how, in hindsight, you can regard the RLA as a positive experience.

There has been no positive example of interregional organizations in NationStates history except for perhaps the UIAF, which differed greatly from the structure proposed for CAIN, and in terms of political and cultural homogeneity. The history of interregional organizations is a history of disaster.

Given your short experience in this game, Cormac, I'll be happy to enlighten you. I was appointed Deputy Director of RLA Intelligence after rogue agents from ASE and TPC did the horrendous deed of forum destruction. We were rightfully accused by most of the world of condoning Forum Destruction, and I was on the investigative team to make sure that we identified the individuals who carried the actions out and make sure they were dealt with correctly. We found that they acted on their own initiative, without authorization from the Director of RLAI (Blackbird), the Executive Committee, nor from the Central Soviet. From then Blackbird and I after my appointment made sure that our intelligence operations against invaders and the PRP/NPO was top notch. You don't see these things in records, sadly because RLA as an organization became irrelevant because of influence (as did ADN, PRP, ACCEL, and many others). Your ignorance in history is almost Unibotian.

Dalimbar wrote:Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:28 amGiven your short experience in this game, Cormac, I'll be happy to enlighten you. I was appointed Deputy Director of RLA Intelligence after rogue agents from ASE and TPC did the horrendous deed of forum destruction. We were rightfully accused by most of the world of condoning Forum Destruction, and I was on the investigative team to make sure that we identified the individuals who carried the actions out and make sure they were dealt with correctly. We found that they acted on their own initiative, without authorization from the Director of RLAI (Blackbird), the Executive Committee, nor from the Central Soviet. From then Blackbird and I after my appointment made sure that our intelligence operations against invaders and the PRP/NPO was top notch. You don't see these things in records, sadly because RLA as an organization became irrelevant because of influence (as did ADN, PRP, ACCEL, and many others). Your ignorance in history is almost Unibotian.

So it is your serious contention that the RLA did not collapse as a result of the forum destruction scandal, but rather due to regional influence?

That just isn't true. Not that I'm particularly surprised. Hoping for a spot in the CAIN bureaucracy?