[PROP] Oh The Times They Are A Changin'

[Rogamark]

Hmm... I haven't been in Osiris in a while, but it's somewhat reassuring to see that nothing ever changes here.

Without going into what the ethos of Osiris may be, something I will leave to people more qualified than me, there is a convincing argument I see in favor of removing the PNG statuses.

The less controversial part of the proposal seems to be the two pardons. I'm not going to comment on them, since a decision on Ridersyl is purely a judgment call, and I'm too biased - re-PNGd him myself in Spiritus - to objectively talk about Cormac. Which is a shame, there would be more than enough inaccuracies to address in his sermon. But I would submit to the Deshret that judicial criminal sentences are generally meant to be punitive in nature. They are handed down to a) punish past criminal conduct, and b) ensure that the individuals in question will not attempt a repetition. I can at least in theory see a case to be made for pardoning people where Pharaoh and Deshret feel those goals have been achieved prior to the expiration of the sentences.

PNG declarations, however, are a very different beast. They are both remedial and protective in nature, designed to permanently keep harmful individuals out of a region, and to make sure they won't have any opportunities to do damage. They're not primarily directed at past conduct, but put in place as a result of a presumption of future conduct. Therefore, the questions should be: Do the people Pharaoh seeks to un-PNG pose a threat to Osiris? Even if all of them were to return, is it likely they would try something? In my opinion, the answers seem to be no and no, and all statements to the contrary exclusively focus on what they've done in the past. And while it is understood that this is often a good indicator for how people are going to act, I'm also mindful that a PNG should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and clear cases, and the people in question are neither. The declarations were completely and utterly justified while Osiris was in crisis mode and needed to take every precaution, but they do not pass the test these days. And even if the repeal turns out to be a mistake, Osiris has ways to deal with troublemakers, it seems.

Despite the certainly valid concerns raised by some people, I'm therefore supporting the proposal as is.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I am not going to get any peace I see so I'll be blunt:

I do not think, based on my experience in Foreign Affairs that Osiris' treaties will hold with any of the regions who sent soldiers to secure Osiris in December 2013 UNLESS they are kept in the loop at all levels of this from the Pharaoh personally. This is no idle decision, this is no minor legislative matter. This proposal deals with the unbanning of the four people that a huge piling force was called in to help remove. A huge piling force nations from Balder, LKE, TNI, Albion, Europeia, TBH, TBR and goodness knows who else. They threw all they had at Osiris to give three people a chance at removing what they thought was a very real threat to the community of Osiris and to give the region a second chance.

Consultation with your allies is a vital thing and Osiris is no minor UCR where people don't care about what happens. No, what happens in Osiris does not effect any other region unless people decide to make it personal, but it is a region which constantly has the eye of at least three Feeders watching for any signs of past strife.

Do I have confirmation that these treaties will break? No, and nor should I. I am no longer a diplomat or representative of Osiris. But what I am is the Diplomat who worked to convince a lot of regions to recognise the Osiris Fraternal Order. I have distanced myself away from that front because of personal differences that I had with Cormac in 2014, and following the disastrous experiences with certain members of the Imperial bloc I decided it was best I stepped away from Osiris.

If this passes and Biyah returns to Osiris? Then what will happen? I don't want to return to that time of Biyah dominated politics. I don't want to deal with that level of shit again. Osiris is meant to be fun, NationStates is meant to be fun. The collective entity of Empire were romanticisied as a threat a lot when the OFO was founded, yes. But the behaviour was in the community. I don't like hearing from multiple people that certain people were asking about my IRL health and querying where I was "mentally fit" to be in Osiris.

The others on that list are symbolism, and I don't think Dali or Neenee will actually do anything to Osiris on their own without provocation. I could support a separate motion to pardon Cormac as I do actually think it is rather discourteous to lump him in with people we Persona non Grata'd as security threats when his actions, and the motivations for them were entirely different. RiderSyl will not get support for any pardon from me, and I'd motion to Deshret PNG 94Block if I thought it would have any traction.

Douria was used as an example in the thread. He shouldn't have been allowed back either, it was a done deal and I felt unable to stop it without causing conflict... not that it mattered since that came anyway.

If something happens to harm Osiris because of one of the people on that list should this proposal be passed then... I am walking away from this region. If that happens, then it happens, and I wish you all good luck in rebuilding. As for me? I have other priorities that are less emotionally debilitating and more fulfilling to work for.

I am no longer going to post in this thread. So you may attack my words at your leisure, as I'm sure was the intention. Do not contact me outside of this forum to drag me back to post, and I wish you all the best in deciding on Osiris' security. Hopefully, you'll choose right.

[Andrew]

I'm no diplomat, but i'm sure anyone can guess that people will get perturbed at this. I may not know the members of Empire on a personal level but I do know this, once you throw the guys that caused trouble out - you don't later let them back in due to 'changing times'. It's not wise to take unneccessary risk towards regional stability for such a reason.

You know, you say that, but it seems that The East Pacific is and continues to be a pretty effective counter to your statement. The East Pacific has indeed let members back in due to their conclusion that "Empire paranoia" is frankly idiotic. Also, as this is raised frequently throughout the thread, I'd really love a comprehensive explanation of how those members are more of a regional threat than anybody else. Any coordinated group with a common goal can do things, the way to counter it is to ensure that the government and the community are capable enough to manage to repel any such subversive influence. Are you implying that Osiris is still not capable of repelling subversive influence from Empire, which also assumes that those people for some reason even give a single damn about couping Osiris.

Simple answer to that is no. I do not presume to know their minds nor do I think that Osiris cannot repeal such influences and I apologise if I led you to think so. I doubt that anyone against this proposal has an immediate coup, on their minds, seeing the difficulty and requirements needed to pull that off.

What I do think some people have on their minds however is what you have rightly pointed out, we cannot assume anything. We cannot assume they will come back or stay away. We cannot assume that they will, ulitmatley, have good intentions should they come back. We cannot assume that everything will be positively fine with their return and that impact of that, in both the short and long term. But what we can do is look at the possibilities. As you say, look towards the future...... but how would that look with them here, compared to them not being here? Dunno. It could be good or bad. We can't know without letting them in. But the uncertainty, the risks, the predictable paranoia/suspicion/provocation, isn't that, what some would say, only a fraction of what KRO was. There should be no doubt that their return will bring the air of apprehension, in some form or another, back to our now calm and stable community. How much so and for how long, dunno?

And while those who support this say that TEP has welcomed its former foes back, I do remind you that this isn't TEP. We may have both suffered from similar dilemmas in the past, but our eventual return to stability may have been different. And while TEP was ready to welcome back those it once opposed. It did so at its own time, when it felt that it can welcome them back and perhaps be able to place their trust in them, but from the looks of things (currently) we are not ready to follow suit.

While I personally am not necessarily in favour of permanent bans, should Osiris see fit, it shall be revoked; perhaps in good time. But this is not a good time.

[The Almighty Jesus Whale]

Just as a small group caused such problem and harm to Osiris, a small group of people who refuse to move on should not be allowed to continue spreading fear and continue to pester old wounds that need to heal which keeps the entire region from completing/continuing the healing process.

[Koth]

Just as a small group caused such problem and harm to Osiris, a small group of people who refuse to move on should not be allowed to continue spreading fear and continue to pester old wounds that need to heal which keeps the entire region from completing/continuing the healing process.

Cute. I'll take a page out of the book of Tim from earlier in this thread: want to name names? Because when you say "small group", you seem to be implying myself and Raven. Neither us appreciate your little comparison, I assure you.

I am not spreading fear in any way, shape, or form. I have candidly stated my opinions on the four players in my above posts. In case anyone else wants to accuse me of fearmongering: I do not believe that this proposal will bear any extreme consequences to the security of this region, because Tim and I have our shit together, and even if we didn't, I believe that this is no longer a community that would be swayed by those individuals the way they were 2 years ago.

Do you know what WOULD make Biyah smile? If I used my administrative status to influence whether or not people I don't like IC were allowed to participate here. But I'm not, so I don't want to fucking hear any Empire comparisons. Choose to agree with me or not, Osiris, you're mature enough to make your own damn decisions.

[Andrew]

Just as a small group caused such problem and harm to Osiris, a small group of people who refuse to move on should not be allowed to continue spreading fear and continue to pester old wounds that need to heal which keeps the entire region from completing/continuing the healing process.

In all honesty, I think it has less to do with living in the past and more about remembering the past, doing what we can to prevent it from repeating itself.

[The Almighty Jesus Whale]

The forum does not seem to want to let me quote, I can't quote posts, I apologize.

To Koth, it is a small group and besides Raven it is rather fluid in its opposition and reason to it, but it is still a relatively small group. I was not specifically referring to you, as you said correctly that you are not fear mongering.

To Andrew, there is a difference from making sure we are aware of mistakes in the past to prevent them from happening and us having a knee jerk reaction against the status quo and moving on and it hurts the region

We're borderline reactionary and the paranoia that the 'Empire' seem to instill in some individuals is hurting Osiris. We are supposed to be inclusive and caring, and this is not inclusive or caring. For ourselves, for our region, and for those who have wronged us in the past.

[shetef]

The forum does not seem to want to let me quote, I can't quote posts, I apologize.

To Koth, it is a small group and besides Raven it is rather fluid in its opposition and reason to it, but it is still a relatively small group. I was not specifically referring to you, as you said correctly that you are not fear mongering.

To Andrew, there is a difference from making sure we are aware of mistakes in the past to prevent them from happening and us having a knee jerk reaction against the status quo and moving on and it hurts the region

We're borderline reactionary and the paranoia that the 'Empire' seem to instill in some individuals is hurting Osiris. We are supposed to be inclusive and caring, and this is not inclusive or caring. For ourselves, for our region, and for those who have wronged us in the past.

Your title is "Guardian," not "Messiah."

We are under no obligation by law or by common NS practice to be all-inclusive. We have the prerogative, just as every other region, to decide whom we will and will not accept as part of our community. Every other GCR and all of the major UCRs exercise this prerogative all the time, with all kinds of criteria.

[The Almighty Jesus Whale]

Quite obviously we are not since we're starting to verge on pettiness.

I apologize for insinuating Osiris should be an open and accepting region rather than a reactionary and closed minded one.

Please continue O infallible Old Guard who have carried us so well through inactive and closed rank times.

[Tomb]

Just as a small group caused such problem and harm to Osiris, a small group of people who refuse to move on should not be allowed to continue spreading fear and continue to pester old wounds that need to heal which keeps the entire region from completing/continuing the healing process.

Seriously? The small group of people you are talking about are the very same ones who care about Osiris and who have put in a lot of energy, time, and work into this region over and over again. It is is their full right to be concerned when the Pharaoh proposes to let back the very individuals who caused the "old wounds" you are talking about. There is also a difference between being concerned (analyzing the situation) and spreading fear... I advise you to study the difference before making these baseless allegations.