Issues with the Pschent

[Ainocra]

it looks good to me, I would extend the appeal deadline a bit, perhaps two weeks, I wanna say thirty days but I feel like that would be too long.

[Datford-Zyvetskistaahn]

I'm not sure as to extending the deadline to two weeks (the one week in the bill is actually an extension itself, from five days to seven, from what was the case under the rules of the Pschent prior to suspension). Appeals, I would think, are usually things that the appellant is going to be doing fairly speedily (I would imagine) and it should usually be the case that they are being attentive enough to make an appeal as they will presumably have been attentive enough to be tried (trials in absentia notwithstanding, but, then, they would likely not be appealed even with a two week deadline). If Councillors do want to extend the deadline though, I don't have a particular problem with doing so.

On the matter of appeals, though, two things have occurred to me. First, under the bill as written there is no provision for extraordinary appeals outside of the one week (or two, or whatever period is decided upon). Under the rules of the Pschent (prior to suspension) there was an allowance for appeal outside of the timelimit, do we want to retain such an allowance here. I can't think of too many uses for it, likely it would be in cases where the law is changed (either by a ruling or by the Deshret) but where the sentence of a person remains despite that. In such cases I think that it would be easier to seek pardon or clemency from the Pharaoh and the Deshret, rather than for the Pschent to review the old case and retroactively declare its sentence void.

Second, under the bill as written the appeal deadline timer starts when a verdict is decided. It is possible, however, that a sentence could be issued some days after a verdict (indeed, possibly after the seven day deadline), meaning that those who do not wish to appeal the verdict but do wish to appeal the sentence (the Scribe of Justice, perhaps, believing a sentence overly lenient) would have either restricted or no opportunity to do so. To the end of addressing this I have drafted a new clause 1.4(a) (below) that would be inserted after subsection 1.4 and would, essentially, substitute the sentencing date for the verdict date, for those cases where they are separated for whatever reason.

(a) Where a sentence is issued after a verdict, the period for appeal shall be counted from the date of sentence.

I have had some discussion about the bill in the Deshret's IRC channel, and, having been given permission by the Keeper to do so, I provide the logs of said discussion.

Spoiler

21:57ZyvetskistaahnAndre, you around?
21:57Zyvetskistaahn<.<
21:58Andreyes
21:58Lykens|TAJWActivity. Oh my.
21:58ZyvetskistaahnYou got a view of the Pschent stuff that is going on?
21:58Andre:P
21:58ZyvetskistaahnYou also, Lykens
21:58Andreyes
21:58Lykens|TAJWTo an extent.
21:58ZyvetskistaahnSaid views are?
21:58Zyvetskistaahn<.<
21:59Lykens|TAJWThe points you brought up male sense.
21:59Lykens|TAJWMake
21:59AndreNecessary to prevent a potential problematic occurrence but perhaps the second proposal may be abit excessive
22:00ZyvetskistaahnThere's a second proposal
22:00Zyvetskistaahn?
22:00Zyvetskistaahn<.<
22:01ZyvetskistaahnOh, the amendment to the bill
22:01ZyvetskistaahnI see
22:01Andrehttps://osiris.valthost.com/viewtopic.p ... t=11309071
22:01Zyvetskistaahn nods
22:02Andrebut its nice to see some convo here
22:02ZyvetskistaahnI've reduced it a bit, but I'm keeping the main body of the new Section and clause (c) of it. Just to avoid the potential judicial review that finds that actual there was no authority for itself to exist
22:02Zyvetskistaahn<.<
22:02Zyvetskistaahn has spent too long in TNP
22:03Andre:P
22:05Lykens|TAJWI don't like appointing ad hoc elders
22:05Lykens|TAJWI can't think of a suitable idea to replace it, so meh.
22:07ZyvetskistaahnQuestion, what would you say to an expanded Pschent
22:07Zyvetskistaahn?
22:07ZyvetskistaahnTo four/five Elders
22:07Lykens|TAJWDo we have enough qualified people for that?
22:08ZyvetskistaahnSeemingly not, as we don't have enough for the present size. But I ask because, if a court of first instance ruling is appealed under the bill as written, then the court of appeal is certain to have an Elder ad hoc on it
22:09Lykens|TAJWYe.
22:09Lykens|TAJWI suppose ad hoc elders will have to be a thing then.
22:10ZyvetskistaahnI don't think that there always being an Elder ad hoc is a bad thing, necessarily, just wanted to note it.
22:11ZyvetskistaahnI mean, with the court as it is, under the present bill every court of appeal case would have at least two of them
22:11Zyvetskistaahnso...
22:12Lykens|TAJWAll of the issues I have with the bill stem from lack of people.
22:12Lykens|TAJWCan't really change that.
22:12Lykens|TAJWLooks good otherwise.
22:15Zyvetskistaahn nods
22:17ZyvetskistaahnAndre, Mr Keeper, might I have leave to post this log in the debate in the chamber before whatever time I go offline, so as to dodge charges of unlawful disclosure that might arise?
22:17ZyvetskistaahnI would hate for the first trial under the bill to be my own
22:18Andreunlawful disclosure?
22:20Andreim not sure I understand
22:20Lykens|TAJWAndre, you're a bit over cap, watch yourself please .
22:21Andreik I have sent out un-endorse TG's
22:21Lykens|TAJWThank you.
22:23ZyvetskistaahnThis place is apparently a "closed session" and I assume it is administered by you as Keeper, so a disclosure of it to the publicly viewable area of the Deshret needs "the explicit approval of the government official(s) responsible for said information"
22:23ZyvetskistaahnWhich, I believe, is you
22:30ZyvetskistaahnAndre!
22:32AndreI see.
22:33AndreI guess there is no harm in disclosing
22:36ZyvetskistaahnSo I have leave?
22:53ZyvetskistaahnAndre!
22:53Zyvetskistaahn<.<
22:53Andreyes
22:53ZyvetskistaahnHuzzah Huzzah!
23:19ZyvetskistaahnLykens|TAJW, any opinion on the length of time allowed for appeals (one week, which is slightly longer than the 5 days allowed under the rules of the pschent before I suspended them)? On whether there should be allowance made for appeals outside a time limit for some extraordinary reason? On generally, the present wording of that subsection (which I'll quote)
23:19Zyvetskistaahn"4. After a verdict has been made by a Court of First Instance, there shall be a period of seven days during which the verdict or sentence may be appealed by the defendant or the Scribe of Justice or their deputy."
23:21ZyvetskistaahnI think I might add a clause to that to the effect that "(a) Where a sentence is issued after a verdict, the period for appeal shall be counted from the date of sentence."
23:21Zyvetskistaahn<.<
23:23Lykens|TAJWI think seven days is fine.
23:23Lykens|TAJWBut I'm iffy on when the appeal time should start.
23:23Lykens|TAJWI would say verdict.
23:24ZyvetskistaahnI'm just thinking to make the addition as it is possible that a person might wish to appeal a sentence but not the verdict, but is precluded by the sentencing being delayed
23:25ZyvetskistaahnPrompt sentencing is preferable, obviously, but might not always be the case
23:26Lykens|TAJWI suppose.
23:27ZyvetskistaahnI'll put the idea in the chamber proper when I post the logs for this
23:27ZyvetskistaahnSee what others think
23:27Lykens|TAJWSounds good.
23:28Zyvetskistaahn'ello again
23:28ZyvetskistaahnAndre any opinion on the length of time allowed for appeals (one week, which is slightly longer than the 5 days allowed under the rules of the pschent before I suspended them)? On whether there should be allowance made for appeals outside a time limit for some extraordinary reason? On generally, the present wording of that subsection (which I'll quote)
23:28Zyvetskistaahn"4. After a verdict has been made by a Court of First Instance, there shall be a period of seven days during which the verdict or sentence may be appealed by the defendant or the Scribe of Justice or their deputy."
23:29ZyvetskistaahnI think I might add a clause to that to the effect that "(a) Where a sentence is issued after a verdict, the period for appeal shall be counted from the date of sentence."
23:30AndreI dont think one week is too long for an appeal
23:31Andrebut what would the time frame be which they would be able to appeal?
23:31ZyvetskistaahnWith the present wording, within the week after the verdict
23:32ZyvetskistaahnWith the potential added clause, within the week after the verdict, unless a sentence is issued later than that, in which case the week after the sentence
23:33ZyvetskistaahnEither of you think that the time allowed for appeal should be longer than a week?
23:33Andreis a week too short?
23:33AndrePerhaps extending it
23:34ZyvetskistaahnPersonally, I don't think so. Just curious as to what others think, on account of Ainocra's suggestion in the chamber
23:36AndreI dont have an particular issue with it. The period for appeals could be longer but thats just a suggestion
23:36Lykens|TAJWWell. If they're going to appeal, I don't think they'd wait to do it.
23:39ZyvetskistaahnThat's my view, essentially
23:40Lykens|TAJWGoing from five to seven is a good enough grace period, I think.

[Datford-Zyvetskistaahn]

*coughs* Presuming that the Deshret would prefer to keep the status quo, in terms of the period for allowing appeals being measured from the date of sentence, where it is later than the date of verdict, I make the amendment mentioned above to the bill.

Unless more Councillors raise concerns as to the length of time allowed for an appeal to be lodged, I shall retain the week for such that is presently in the bill and not add a provision to allow for extraordinary appeals outside of that.

[Datford-Zyvetskistaahn]

Section 1: Criminal Trials and Appeals

1. This Section shall apply for proceedings before the Pschent arising from valid charges of crimes contrary to the Criminal Codex of the Osiris Fraternal Order Act.

2. All valid charges that appear to one or more Elders of the Pschent to be supported by sufficient evidence as to require further investigation shall be tried before a Court of First Instance in accordance the rules of the Pschent.

3. Courts of First Instance shall consist of a single Elder, selected in such manner as the rules of the Pschent shall prescribe, who shall determine guilt or lack thereof and sentence.

4. After a verdict has been made by a Court of First Instance, there shall be a period of seven days during which the verdict or sentence may be appealed by the defendant or the Scribe of Justice or their deputy.

(a) Where a sentence is issued after a verdict, the period for appeal shall be counted from the date of sentence.

5. All appeals that appear to one or more Elders of the Pschent to require further investigation shall be tried before a Court of Appeal in accordance with the rules of the Pschent.

6. Courts of Appeal shall consist of three Elders, selected in such manner as the rules of the Pschent shall prescribe, who shall determine the appeal and may confirm, vary or overturn the decision being appealed.

7. The decisions of Courts of Appeal shall be made by a majority of their membership and shall not be liable to further appeal.

Section 2: Judicial Reviews

1. This Section shall apply for proceedings before the Pschent arising from applications for judicial review.

2. All applications for judicial review that appear to one or more Elders of the Pschent to be made by an affected citizen and to require further investigation shall be tried before a Court of Appeal in accordance with the rules of the Pschent.

3. Courts of Appeal shall consist of three Elders, selected in such manner as the rules of the Pschent shall prescribe, who shall determine the review and make such orders as are necessary to give effect to their determination.

4. The decisions of Courts of Appeal shall be made by a majority of their membership and shall not be liable to appeal.

Section 3: Conflicts of Interest and Temporary Appointments

1. Where an Elder of the Pschent holds an interest in a charge, appeal or application brought or made under the preceding Sections of this Act, that Elder shall not participate in the making of any decision or determination in such proceedings and their office shall be considered vacant for such proceedings.

2. Where the absences or vacancies of one or more Elders of the Pschent result in there being no Elder to accept a charge, appeal or application brought or made under the preceding Sections of this Act, a citizen shall be appointed as Elder ad hoc and shall determine whether the charge, appeal or application requires further investigation.

(a) Any Elder ad hoc appointed by virtue of this Subsection shall serve as an Elder ad hoc on the court constituted as a result of their determination, should their determination require the constitution of a court.

3. Where the absences or vacancies of one or more Elders of the Pschent results in a Court of First Instance or a Court of Appeal lacking sufficient members, a citizen or citizens may be appointed as Elders ad hoc for the duration of a proceeding before the Court to which they are appointed.

4. Appointments by virtue of the preceding Subsections shall be made by the Pharaoh, subject to the following:

(a) Where the vacancy or absence results in the lack of a single member of a Court of Appeal, the agreement of two Elders of the Pschent who are not absent shall be necessary for such appointment to be valid.

(b) Where the vacancy or absence results in the lack of two members of a Court of Appeal, the agreement of one Elder of the Pschent who is not absent, and of the Keeper of the Deshret shall be necessary for such appointments to be valid.

(c) Where the vacancy or absence results in the lack of all members of a Court of First Instance or Court of Appeal, or of any Elder capable of accepting a charge, appeal or application, the agreement of the Keeper of the Deshret, and of whichever Guardian of the Atef is first in the Pharaonic line of succession and who is not also Keeper of the Deshret shall be necessary for such appointments to be valid.

5. In relation to any case for which they are appointed, Elders ad hoc may exercise all powers of and shall hold responsibilities of Elders.

Section 4: Definitions

1. For the purpose of this Act, the following definitions shall apply:

(a) An "absence" shall mean any period of time during which a person has declared themselves absent or any period of time after a person does not log onto the regional forum for seven days and before the next time they log onto the regional forum.

(b) A "vacancy" shall mean any period of time during which an office has no holder, due to the holder having resigned or been removed, or is treated as having no holder for a time for any reason.

(c) An "interest" shall mean involvement in a charge, appeal or application, in the form of being a party in a case, counsel for any party in a case, a member of a Court that made the decision being appealed, or having some other substantial involvement in the matter or matters that have led to the charge, appeal or application.

(d) A "valid charge" shall mean a charge of any crime contrary to the Criminal Codex of the Osiris Fraternal Order Act that is not precluded by Section 8 of that Act.

(e) A "judicial review" shall mean a challenge to the lawfulness or constitutionality any act or omission of any official of the Osiris Fraternal Order or any law or rule made by any organ of the Osiris Fraternal Order.

Section 5: Consequential Ammendments to the State Code

1. In the State Code of the Osiris, after clause 4.1(b), a new clause is inserted that reads:

(c) Provision for temporary appointments may be made by law for absences of Elders, vacancies in the Pschent, or conflicts of interest.

2. Subsection 4.2 of the State Code of Osiris is amended to read:

2. The Pschent will have the power to make and revise its own procedural rules. This power may be exercised by any two Elders, if there are fewer than two Elders this power may be exercised by a single Elder.

3. Subsection 4.6 of the State Code of Osiris is amended to read:

6. Decisions of the Pschent shall be made in accordance with this Code, other laws and the rules of the Pschent.

Section 6: Enactment Provisions

1. No provision of this Act shall take effect unless all provisions of this Act take effect.

2. Should this Act take effect, Sections 5 and 6 of this Act shall be struck from the public record.

Spoiler

Section 4: Pschent of Osiris

1. The Pschent will be the judicial council of Osiris, comprised of three Elders of the Pschent appointed by the Pharaoh with the approval of the Deshret. Elders of the Pschent will not serve as Pharaoh, Vizier, Scribe of the Hedjet, Guardian of the Atef, or Keeper of the Deshret and will not serve as junior officials for any of these offices for the duration of their service on the Pschent.

(a) Only citizens of Osiris may be appointed to the Pschent.

(b) Elders may maintain active involvement in Priesthoods of the Hedjet and may serve as Councilors of the Deshret while serving as Elders.

(c) Provision for temporary appointments may be made by law for absences of Elders, vacancies in the Pschent, or conflicts of interest.

2. The Pschent will have the power to make and revise its own procedural rules. This power may be exercised by any two Elders, if there are fewer than two Elders this power may be exercised by a single Elder.

3. The Pschent will have the power to nullify any law or portion of law that contradicts this Code, and to order the cessation of any government action that violates this Code or the laws of Osiris. The Pschent may only exercise this power if petitioned to do so by an affected citizen of Osiris.

4. The Pschent will have the power to hear prosecution of alleged criminal offenses by the Scribe of Justice or their deputy, to decide guilt or the lack of it, and to determine penalties for guilty parties according to the standards established by law.

5. Decisions by the Pschent amount to interpretation of the law, and those decisions and interpretation are binding on the Pschent and all government bodies and officials.

6. Unless otherwise noted by this Code, all decisions by the Pschent will be made by simple majority vote.Decisions of the Pschent shall be made in accordance with this Code, other laws and the rules of the Pschent.

I apologise to Councillors for what is now a triple post, however, this is necessary to ensure that the motion in this post is seen promptly.

As Councillors have largely not participated in this debate, and as those that have are largely satisfied with the Bill, I move to vote.

Provision for extraordinary appeals outside of the period allowed for appeals is not included in the Bill, as no member has expressed support for such, Councillors may draft and pass a bill to amend such a provision into the Bill should it become an Act. The period allowed for an appeal to be lodged with the Pschent is one week, this is longer than was allowable under the recently suspended Rules of the Pschent relating to appeals, however it is not so long as some Councillors have suggested; I have retained the one week period as I feel that it is a reasonable length of time and because it is only a slight increase from the aforementioned Rules of the Pschent, if Councillors disagree with my view on this I urge them, again, to draft and pass a Bill amending this one rather than voting against this one.

[The Almighty Jesus Whale]

Second.

[Ainocra]

seconded as well

[War Wombat]

I also second this.