[Proposal] Proscribed Regions and Organizations

[Wrektopia]

There's been some call for making our regulation on involvement in procribed regions more effective. I decided to take a shot at revising this section of our legal code:

Section 3: Proscribed Regions and Organizations

(1) The Council of Scribes may, with the assent of the Pharaoh, establish certain regions or organizations as proscribed, and rescind the proscribed status of these regions or organizations.
(2) No individual participating in a proscribed region or organization may be admitted to citizenship until ending such participation.
(3) Citizenship will automatically be revoked from any citizen discovered to be participating in a proscribed region or organization, following a 72 hour grace period in which the citizen may end participation in the proscribed region or organization.
(4) Citizenship will automatically be revoked, without any grace period, from any citizen discovered to have been participating in a proscribed region or organization at the time of their admission to citizenship, if such participation was excluded from their application for citizenship.
(5) Any application for diplomatic visa or embassies filed on behalf of a proscribed region or organization will not be approved. Any embassy already maintained with a proscribed region or organization will immediately be closed.
(6) The following regions and organizations are established as proscribed regions and organizations: 10000 Islands; The Order of the Grey Wardens, and any region or organization hosting an official outpost of The Order of the Grey Wardens; Solidarian Fleet, and all member regions of Solidarity; and Renegade Islands Alliance.
(7) The above clause may automatically be updated by the Chief Scribe or legislative deputies upon the establishment or rescinding of proscribed regions or organizations.
(8) The above provisions against participation in or diplomatic relations with proscribed regions or organizations will not apply to official diplomatic duties on behalf of other regions to the proscribed regions or organizations or to participation in invasion, occupation, conquest, infiltration for the purpose of espionage or subversion, or other such action taken against proscribed regions or organizations.

This will be amended to:

Section 3: Proscribed Regions and Organizations

(1) The Council of Scribes may, with the assent of the Pharaoh, establish certain regions or organizations as proscribed, and rescind the proscribed status of these regions or organizations.
(2) No individual participating in a proscribed region or organization may be admitted to citizenship until ending such participation.
(3) Citizenship will automatically be revoked from any citizen discovered to be participating in a proscribed region or organization, following a 72 hour grace period in which the citizen may end participation in the proscribed region or organization.
(4) Citizenship will automatically be revoked, without any grace period, from any citizen discovered to have been participating in a proscribed region or organization at the time of their admission to citizenship, if such participation was excluded from their application for citizenship.
(5) Any application for diplomatic visa or embassies filed on behalf of a proscribed region or organization will not be approved. Any embassy already maintained with a proscribed region or organization will immediately be closed.
(6) The following regions and organizations are established as proscribed regions and organizations: 10000 Islands; The Order of the Grey Wardens, and any region or organization hosting an official outpost of The Order of the Grey Wardens; Solidarian Fleet, and all member regions of Solidarity; and Renegade Islands Alliance.
(7) The above clause may automatically be updated by the Chief Scribe or legislative deputies upon the establishment or rescinding of proscribed regions or organizations.
(8) The above provisions against participation in or diplomatic relations with proscribed regions or organizations will not apply to official diplomatic duties on behalf of other regions to the proscribed regions or organizations or to participation in invasion, occupation, conquest, infiltration for the purpose of espionage or subversion, or other such action taken against proscribed regions or organizations that was explicitly authorized by the Pharaoh.

1. The grace period is open to abuse by individuals who might knowingly join a proscribed organization only to "cease and desist" within the time allowed.

2. I figured if someone is participating in a proscribed region or organization upon applying for citizenship and they mention it in their application then we should catch it. And if somehow this is missed then it shouldn't just allow them to escape punishment for their allegiance to an outspoken enemy. "Oh, our bad, we missed it the first time around" doesn't seem like justification to humiliate ourselves even further. We should have the power to act at this point.

3. I added the very last part to avoid possibly allowing people to get by with excuses for participating in an enemy region, such as "I was spying on them, not helping them". The Pharaoh seems like the ultimate authority here. If the Pharaoh didn't authorize it then it was probably an act of defiance by one or multiple members of the government.

Now, this is not to say that any of these things can't be appealed through the appropriate channels. It should only make this law harder to abuse.

Please discuss.

[Adytus]

I fully support this.

[Sygian]

I do support this, though I am a tad bit unsettled on removing the grace period. I do understand the angle you are coming from. I also do agree that because they are a citizen, they should be aware of our Proscribed Organizations policy.

I am not sure if this belongs in the amendment, but we should definitely add into the citizenship application something like "Are you a member of any of these organizations?" and add a list of our proscribed regions and organizations. Would be a nice idea. I think TSP has something similar.

[Wrektopia]

Yeah, that's probably a good idea. You'd think people would know if they were participating in a proscribed region while applying but honest mistakes can happen. I don't think we can do that through this amendment but I'll check...

[Dalimbar]

As per Article 1, Section 1 of Scroll of Ma'at:

(4) Additional requirements regarding admission to citizenship may be established by law.

If members wish to have an explicit question on the application form with the purpose of excluding members from prohibited regions, then I'd personally include such a statement in this legislation.

[Wrektopia]

Thanks. Is the oath we take and the questionnaire actually established by law? Because I can't find that anywhere. And solving this might be as simple as listing the regions in that thread.

But I agree, it would probably be better to establish this formally.

[Wymondham]

We could amend it into law

[Cormac]

I'm very strongly against removal of the grace period and will vote against this proposal if removal of the grace period is included. Citizens should have time to withdraw from a proscribed region or organization, particularly one that has been newly designated as proscribed. This law was meant to be a reasonable deterrent against participation in such regions and organizations, not as a harsh punitive measure.

I also have issues with the proposed change to (8). Are we really going to expect citizens to get the Pharaoh's authorization for military or intelligence operations undertaken with other regions or organizations? Other regions and organizations are entitled to operational security.

Honestly, I think we're past the point of needing this law at all, and I would love to see it repealed. But failing that, it's fine as is, and this feels like a case of legislating something unnecessary just for something to do. I can't say I'm likely to vote for this.

[Sygian]

I just noticed the amendment to sub-section (8). I have to say, I am against that part exactly for the reasons that Cormac mentioned.

Once again, I'm still a bit iffy on the grace period removal.

[Wrektopia]

Cormac, are you against removing the grace period because it would close the loophole that would allow you to work with a (not very newly designated as proscribed) region like The Grey Wardens, as long as you did so irregularly?