Osiris Fraternal Order

Currently, the legal endorsement limit for Guardians is 66% of the Pharaoh's endorsement count or ten fewer endorsements than the Vizier, whichever is lower. This means that the legal endorsement limit for Guardians is currently 94 endorsements -- both because that is 66% of Tim's count, and ten fewer than the Vizier's. The endorsement limit on the WFE is a base guideline, but 94 is the current legal limit.

This is somewhat problematic, in my view. The difference between Tim's endorsement count and the current legal limit is 48 endorsements, which would mean a difficult gap in the event of a coup. (Not saying Tim would coup, just using the current gap as an example of the effect the current limit has). The requirement that the Guardian limit must be ten fewer than the Vizier's endo count if that's lower would also be problematic with a Vizier who doesn't tart actively enough, because that could generate an even wider gap between the Guardians and the Pharaoh.

I would propose that we should either change the cap to 75% of the Pharaoh's endorsement count (which would increase our current limit to 107, a gap of 35) or a fixed number of 30 fewer than the Pharaoh's endorsement count. And I think we should eliminate the requirement of being ten fewer than the Vizier. If the Vizier isn't tarting as actively as the Guardians, that is frankly the Vizier's problem, but with the current requirement it could become everyone's problem in the event of a coup. If we have an inactive Vizier and a gap of, say, 60, between the Guardians and the Pharaoh, it will be nearly impossible to end a coup.

I think we should also remove the Guardian cap from the WFE. The legal limit constantly fluctuates according to the Pharaoh's and Vizier's endorsement count, which means the cap is frequently slightly higher or lower than the cap on the WFE. Guardians know how to calculate the legal cap and we know to ask for unendorsements when we're over the cap, so I don't think that needs listed on the WFE, it leads to confusion.

Thoughts?

Looks good to me

Agreed.

I am totally ok with removing the vizier requirement although I understand why it is in place.

As for increasing the percentage, I am torn. Ultimately, guardians are here to protect the region and we should help them do so. We do need to remember Osiris' history with players in "guardian" roles and how they have used their position to seize the delegate position. 66% is a weird percentage though anyways, so I would be ok with a change.

Jakker wrote:Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:45 amI am totally ok with removing the vizier requirement although I understand why it is in place.

As for increasing the percentage, I am torn. Ultimately, guardians are here to protect the region and we should help them do so. We do need to remember Osiris' history with players in "guardian" roles and how they have used their position to seize the delegate position. 66% is a weird percentage though anyways, so I would be ok with a change.

Yeah, totally agreed that we also don't want to raise the cap too high. I wouldn't want there to be a 20 endo or less gap between Guardians and the Pharaoh, for example, because then you're in the realm of possibility of an update operation by outside forces to help a Guardian coup.

I'm aiming for somewhere around a 30-35 endorsement gap because it would be difficult to pull off a coup with updaters at that range, but it still wouldn't be too big a gap to end a coup by the Pharaoh. I'm not sure whether it would be better to go with a 75% endo limit or with a fixed number of 30 endorsements fewer than the Pharaoh though.

Agreed, it's for better protection this way. Though this does have its risks. So I think the above post by Cormac is just about right^

Cormac wrote:Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:51 am I'm aiming for somewhere around a 30-35 endorsement gap because it would be difficult to pull off a coup with updaters at that range, but it still wouldn't be too big a gap to end a coup by the Pharaoh. I'm not sure whether it would be better to go with a 75% endo limit or with a fixed number of 30 endorsements fewer than the Pharaoh though.

I lean towards the 30-35 fewer than the Pharaoh suggestion because endos on delegate have been creeping upwards so right now 75% would make a 35 endo gap which is pretty reasonable but say the endo count is 160 which isn't too far off we've now jumped to a 40 endo gap and so on.

Seems like a fine idea.

Revall wrote:Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:10 pm

Cormac wrote:Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:51 am I'm aiming for somewhere around a 30-35 endorsement gap because it would be difficult to pull off a coup with updaters at that range, but it still wouldn't be too big a gap to end a coup by the Pharaoh. I'm not sure whether it would be better to go with a 75% endo limit or with a fixed number of 30 endorsements fewer than the Pharaoh though.

I lean towards the 30-35 fewer than the Pharaoh suggestion because endos on delegate have been creeping upwards so right now 75% would make a 35 endo gap which is pretty reasonable but say the endo count is 160 which isn't too far off we've now jumped to a 40 endo gap and so on.

Complete agreement with this.

It looks like we have fairly broad agreement, and no expressed disagreement, so here is a legislative draft:

Guardian Endorsement Limit Amendment

Section 1: Amendment

1. Section 2.10(a) of the State Code of Osiris will be amended as follows:

Current Text wrote:(a) Guardians of the Atef may only exceed the general endorsement limit up to 66% of the Pharaoh's endorsement count or ten endorsements less than the Vizier's endorsement count, whichever is lower.

Amended Text wrote:(a) Guardians of the Atef may only exceed the general endorsement limit up to thirty endorsements fewer than the Pharaoh's endorsement count.