Osiris Fraternal Order

With accordance to Section 3.1b of the State Code of Osiris, I am motioning for a full Deshret vote on the acceptance of Neo Kervoskia.

It's one thing to have removed the PNGs. It's another to have accepted him back into our community with open arms. It's another entirely to so readily let him jump right back into our legislature. Some of you were just about ready to scream Tim's head off for his proposal, why am I the first to suggest this?

I have nothing against NK other than what I have repeatedly stated before regarding his Empire affiliations. Let's not get so damn hasty to bring them all back into our decision making body. He can stick around for a while in a non-Desh capacity.

Thanks for posting your concern, Koth. My reasoning for accepting NK's application to the Deshret was following in suite with what the community decided in removing his PNG. If Osiris believes that Neo Kervoskia deserves to return, I do not feel as though it would be just to deny him from the Deshret. Nor do I feel it fair to withhold him access to the Deshret for an arbitrary period of time. There would be no ability for objectivity in that decision. That was the logic behind my decision and I am open to hearing others' views.

Jakker wrote:Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:54 amThanks for posting your concern, Koth. My reasoning for accepting NK's application to the Deshret was following in suite with what the community decided in removing his PNG. If Osiris believes that Neo Kervoskia deserves to return, I do not feel as though it would be just to deny him from the Deshret. Nor do I feel it fair to withhold him access to the Deshret for an arbitrary period of time. There would be no ability for objectivity in that decision. That was the logic behind my decision and I am open to hearing others' views.

Putting NK aside and speaking in a general sense, the idea that it would be "unjust" to deny someone membership in the Deshret just because they've been admitted to citizenship doesn't make sense. This is why the Deshret isn't an all-citizen legislature, why people must separately apply to join the Deshret, why they must be accepted by the Keeper, and why Councilors can motion for a full Deshret vote on their applications and urge rejection. We have this system in place precisely for this reason. This system makes no sense if we're going to consider it "unjust" to use it.

Going back to NK's application specifically, I'm actually glad he's back and I believe he wants to positively contribute, but I also don't think it's unreasonable to want to see him participating here for a while and see how that goes before admitting him to the Deshret. I second the motion for a full Deshret vote, because I think it's at least important for the entire Deshret to weigh in, even if ultimately the decision is to admit NK to the Deshret. I'm not going to say we definitely should or we definitely shouldn't, but what I can definitely say is that the discussion and the vote are both worth having and we should approach this with serious deliberation.

Cormac wrote:Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:07 am

Jakker wrote:Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:54 amThanks for posting your concern, Koth. My reasoning for accepting NK's application to the Deshret was following in suite with what the community decided in removing his PNG. If Osiris believes that Neo Kervoskia deserves to return, I do not feel as though it would be just to deny him from the Deshret. Nor do I feel it fair to withhold him access to the Deshret for an arbitrary period of time. There would be no ability for objectivity in that decision. That was the logic behind my decision and I am open to hearing others' views.

Putting NK aside and speaking in a general sense, the idea that it would be "unjust" to deny someone membership in the Deshret just because they've been admitted to citizenship doesn't make sense. This is why the Deshret isn't an all-citizen legislature, why people must separately apply to join the Deshret, why they must be accepted by the Keeper, and why Councilors can motion for a full Deshret vote on their applications and urge rejection. We have this system in place precisely for this reason. This system makes no sense if we're going to consider it "unjust" to use it.

Just as a note, my comments are specifically in regards to this situation, not the system as a whole. I am aware and agree that the Deshret is not an all-citizen legislature. Unlike most situations, the community at large voted for NK to be a member of Osiris.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to want to see him participating here for a while and see how that goes before admitting him to the Deshret.

What does participating here outside of the Deshret look like? Because truthfully, the options are scarce and what is the goal behind that?

I can definitely say is that the discussion and the vote are both worth having and we should approach this with serious deliberation.

Again, I am not opposed to a discussion. My interpretation of the situation was that we, as a community, had a lengthy discussion about all the individuals we voted on including NK, and the community ultimately decided to vote for NK to return to the community.

In my eyes, withholding NK from Deshret feels a tad bit like double jeopardy.

In a situation like this, it'd be best to analyze this situation.

What are the pros of admitting NK?
What are the cons of admitting NK?

I can't really comment much here, as I don't know NK well enough or his histoy, but this analysis helps me and other formulate a decision when the vote comes.

I do not fault Koth for his sentiments. Empire, through calculation and deception, couped the constitutionally-elected Pharaoh and raged war against many of the very people now serving in this chamber. And as part of Empire, I take full responsibility for my actions, as I have always done. Whether it's been two, ten, or twenty years ago it's hard to forget, and even harder to accept back into the community, an individual who perpetrated such designs on the community.

And this is a community and not Empire, not Gatesville, not one single group or individual can ever destroy that. I was in Osiris in the beginning when we all looked with glittering eyes at this land of second chances. In a way that is what I returned for. Not for forgiveness, not for redemption, but a chance to start again. In what capacity, only time will tell.

But what I will not do is divide this chamber, or this community. If it is the sincere wish of my colleagues to remain in this chamber, I will accede to their will.

It is in that spirit that I heartily second Koth's motion.

I agree that we as a community flip-flopped on NK pretty hard.
There's an easy way to find out if the Deshreti are as concerned at the rate of his reacceptance as y'all are.

I second Koth's motion as well.

Ridersyl wrote:Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:00 pmI agree that we as a community flip-flopped on NK pretty hard.
There's an easy way to find out if the Deshreti are as concerned at the rate of his reacceptance as y'all are.

I second Koth's motion as well.

I agree. I fourth the motion.

The motion will be brought to a vote on March 15th in accordance with Section 2.1 of the Procedure of the Deshret.

Koth himself said that NK isn't a bad guy and was mostly given his punishment because of guilt by association.

I wouldn't feel the same way if say Biyah or Dalimbar was in this situation, but voting to expel NK, which is basically what we'll be doing if I'm reading everyone here correctly, is saying, 'Sorry, you chose the wrong side, and even though you only had a minor part in bad things happening, we're shutting you out for a bit'.

Seems wrong and like we're sliding backwards when we've just stepped out of the shadow that they've cast on Osiris.