Osiris Fraternal Order

So, banks are still closed in Greece (until Monday) and they are in default on an IMF loan. Today is the make or break day for Greece to propose something that the EU can agree to. But in what was probably an effort to shift blame to the voters for impending calamity, the PM Alex Tsiprias held a referendum on the EU demands to reform the pension and tax systems. So now his hands are kind of tied. Can they reach a deal? I'm guessing no. Care to debate it?

Poor saps

I haven't really been keeping up with it...just enough to laugh at the continual decline of the nation.

That's an understatement. The Greek economy has shrunk by 25% in the past 6 years. They were projecting 3% growth at the beginning of this year but after the past two weeks of bank shut downs and capital controls, it'll be another co reactionary year.

My girlfriend is Greek with cousins living there, so I've been hearing quite a bit about it. Doesn't sound too good, I imagine they're screwed.

I think their culture is their Downfall.

"Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress."

~ Isocrates

I mean...

"Pants destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress."

Austerity is shit and ruins growth. Sure they've got debt, but the debt was created by what is basically loan sharking with nation-states. (at least partly, they've done some bad things but there's mitigating things)They spend/spent an awful lot on military due to a perceived Turkish threat, and got loans and such for it. There was a good article on it.
They should have dropped out of the Euro in 2012 and gone back to the drachma. It would then immediately crash, and their economy could recover on exports.

Reminds me of a joke I read in Er is Wieder Da a while ago...

A Portuguese, a Greek and a Spaniard all go to a brothel. Who pays?

Germany.

Austerity can be bad for growth, but the opposite is also true. (Read Bastiate's essay "the parable of the broken window"). Greek debt is unmanageable, not because of military spending, yes they spend quite a bit on military but they are under NATO protection and the % of GDP that Greece spends on it is a pale shadow of what the U.S. spends. Greece's debt problems would appear more to stem from a culture of tax avoidance (on paper, few Greek doctors make more than 12,000 euros a year) and a hyper bloated government.
Tsiprias' proposal is interesting in that it essentially capitulates on pension and tax reform but also includes debt restructuring and forgiveness which Germany has flatly refused. The Germans are probably pretty leery of the deal as they've been financing the Greek lifestyle for a while now and are still waiting for the reforms from bailout #2 to be put into place. T-3 days and counting. Any wagers on Grexit?