[Passed] On Proscribed Regions and Organizations

Post by **Wrektopia** » Thu May 04, 2017 7:17 pm

An opinion is hearsay by definition.

Sygian · Post by **Sygian** » Thu May 04, 2017 9:21 pm

Wrektopia wrote:Fri May 05, 2017 12:17 amAn opinion is hearsay by definition.

Then what was the point of calling out mine specifically, if all opinions are hearsay?

Sygian · Post by **Sygian** » Fri May 05, 2017 7:25 am

1) Old thread: https://osiris.valthost.com/viewtopic.p ... st10001008 Like I know they don't control Islamic Republics of Iran anymore, Funkadelia quit TGW to join LWU. During his TGW days, they defended him and trolled about the refound. They didn't get him to return it when the proscribed region treaty was enforced, and they shouldn't be excused just because he quit the region months down the line after getting bored of being a defender. Him leaving doesn't mean that they're fully innocent. Literally the WFE of the former Osiris-owned region stated "Claimed by TGW" up until the day he quit, and then it was removed.

Funkadelia was never a Warden. He was the one that sniped the refound and kept it to himself. He defended as either FRA (probably until their collapse) or LLA. When Funkadelia refounded it, FRA/LLA rules wouldn't permit him to tag it as such, so he put a TGW tag on it and they laughed about it and thought it was funny because we were a raider region and they were defenders. R/D politics, right?

@Adytus: If you want to claim that there's proof that the Wardens are plotting to destroy Osiris, then you must provide the proof too.

From what I've seen, they've never said specifically that they are trying to undermine or destroy the sovereignty of Osiris. Here's my issue. The language and writing of the new law is just bad, and needs a lot of revision. You also remove all other regions that vow to destroy raider regions but keep the Grey Wardens so this extremely looks like an anti-TGW move which isn't cool. Then, your deputy scribe moves to vote weeks ago. After that, discussion occurs and it is clear that we need to work on this some more. Then, you other trigger-happy deputy seconds the motion and puts it to vote. That's absolutely not necessary and very improper, in my opinion.

Post by **Wrektopia** » Fri May 05, 2017 7:28 am

Because Adytus perceives the Wardens as remaining a security threat and you disagreed, then stated your opinion that they aren't but provided no evidence of their cessation of hostilities. His calling you out was a rebuttal (tends to happen in a debate); now, since you apparently don't actually have anything of substance to put forward to support your opinion, you're trying to use the old, scripted trick of "act outraged and try to look persecuted" in a lame attempt to win the argument.

Post by **Wrektopia** » Fri May 05, 2017 7:28 am

There were 11 days of silence for you to do this in, by the way. Nothing was rushed to vote here.

Sygian · Post by **Sygian** » Fri May 05, 2017 7:36 am

Wrektopia wrote:Fri May 05, 2017 12:28 pmBecause Adytus perceives the Wardens as remaining a security threat and you disagreed, then stated your opinion that they aren't but provided no evidence of their cessation of hostilities. His calling you out was a rebuttal (tends to happen in a debate); now, since you apparently don't actually have anything of substance to put forward to support your opinion, you're trying to use the old, scripted trick of "act outraged and try to look persecuted" in a lame attempt to win the argument.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about here. What about the other regions who have said they will destroy raider regions when given the chance? Adytus never provided a glimpse of evidence that said TGW was working to destroy us. At this point, it's just hypotheticals. I am outraged at the process that was used to get this to vote, and that the fact that our former- Chief Vizier and current Cheif Scribe says things like "you can't make everyone happy in a democratic system." At this point, I'd be less surprised if we found out that Adytus was trying to undermine Osiris than if the Grey Wardens were. Whether or not he was "rebutting" me is beside the point. He failed to provide proof as well, and isn't being treated the same as I am. If Adytus doesn't provide proof, that's ok! But if I don't, then I'm Satan (no offense NK). If Adytus has an opinion, it's good! But if I do, it's hearsay. It never ends.

An opinion is hearsay by definition

It's a good thing you didn't get elected Chief Vizier then.

Post by **Wrektopia** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:05 am

TGW's animosity towards us (and us explicitly, not just us as a "raider region") has been historically established. The fact that they've made no recent statements reaffirming their stance against us doesn't indicate cessation of hostility. It implies a continuation of their established status (until otherwise openly revised). Your logic is a textbook fallacy, and something tells me that you know this. Fetch a statement.

You can't make everyone happy in a democracy. Not all the time. The hope is that you can make most people happy, which is what appears to be happening (check the voting thread).

Also, I'd advise curtailing your attitude, Syg. Trying to define "posses" and firing unfounded accusations of unpatriotic intent at your colleagues is an ugly and dangerous game. You're on the losing end of this argument; cut the smear bullshit, accept that most of the citizenry disagrees with you, and try to be civil. I've taken my losses in stride; can you say the same?

Sygian · Post by **Sygian** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:29 am

Wrektopia wrote:Fri May 05, 2017 1:05 pmTGW's animosity towards us (and us explicitly, not just us as a "raider region") has been historically established. The fact that they've made no recent statements reaffirming their stance against us doesn't indicate cessation of hostility. It implies a continuation of their established status (until otherwise openly revised). Your logic is a textbook fallacy, and something tells me that you know this. Fetch a statement.

You can't make everyone happy in a democracy. Not all the time. The hope is that you can make most people happy, which is what appears to be happening (check the voting thread).

Also, I'd advise curtailing your attitude, Syg. Trying to define "posses" and firing unfounded accusations of unpatriotic intent at your colleagues is an ugly and dangerous game. You're on the losing end of this argument; cut the smear bullshit, accept that most of the citizenry disagrees with you, and try to be civil. I've taken my losses in stride; can you say the same?

Once again, you've provided no proof that they are out to destroy us. So when you say that they are claiming to "explicitly [destroy] us," you don't have any proof. I'd really like to see it because that claim is just absurd.

Wrektopia, you can't come out of the shadows where you've been hidden since you lost the election and tell me to "curtail my attitude." If I am making "unfounded accusations" then so is daddy Adytus, so I'd advise you to curtail the biased attacks toward me out of distaste of my character. I'll not accept this as a loss because it's not. Most of the citizenry is wrong and I am disappointed that most didn't take the time to realize the unprofessional writing and authorship of this bill, along with the anti-Warden aspect that it exerts.

Post by **Wrektopia** » Fri May 05, 2017 5:51 pm

I recommend you walk yourself through these two pages, if you need some understanding of our history with these people and want to see my "proof". Again, demanding proof that they haven't ended hostilities when you have no proof that they have is fallacious. I've already explained this.

No, I think I'm perfectly within a my rights to "come out of the shadows" and say what I've said. And I stand by it. Your logic is flawed, your hostile tone is uncalled-for, your accusations are offensive, and you've crossed lines, all-around. These are not "biased attacks". I'm not the one smearing anyone's character here. This is defense: of my understanding of justice and due course and of a friend and a colleague who has done nothing but put his best foot forward for the sake of this region.

If you think that the region's support of this "anti-Warden aspect" is wrong, so be it. I've yet to see exactly what Warden statement or behavior your opinion is based on because you've provided none. Your line of reasoning is akin to saying "the sky is green" in a room without windows, then challenging the other people in the room to provide proof that you've lied. Last we all saw it was blue. Is it green? Maybe, but nobody in the room can see it.

Sygian · Post by **Sygian** » Fri May 05, 2017 6:07 pm

I recommend you walk yourself through these two pages, if you need some understanding of our history with these people and want to see my "proof". Again, demanding proof that they haven't ended hostilities when you have no proof that they have is fallacious. I've already explained this.

I asked for proof that they are explicitly targeting Osiris, like Adytus claimed. Thanks.