[Discussion] TRR Non-Aggression Pact

[Venico]

I'm not debating this anymore. I'll vote nay on any treaty I don't find beneficial to Osiris and I don't find this to be that way.

I have issue with the term Sister Sinker being used for reasons to have relations with a region or hell even give it importance. If TRR was a UCR this treaty would get thrown out the window, but because they're a GCR they get importance which I think is BS but whatever. I don't find TRR a reasonable ally even to a region that defended. They are an inactive sludge pot made of the rejects of regions. They also pump out more hot air and propaganda than any other region. But we must overlook this because they're a "Sister Sinker". If we truly want to show the world that we're ok with defender regions, then I'll say it again, get me a NAP with TITO. They're actually a respectable region that doesn't throw around crap every few weeks. I'm not using that as an example, I implore the executive that if we are going to make a treaty to show the world that we like defenders and what not...do it with a region we can benefit from. 10KI is the best idea I can come up with. But if there are others throw them out there.

[Dead Account]

I neither trust nor want relations with Unibot

[Andrew]

Dear Friends and Fraternal Comrades of the OFO,
I have thus far refrained from speaking, due to my relative inexperience to the realm of GCR politics. However, several aspects of this unexpectedly lively debate have so impressed themselves upon my mind that I now feel compelled to speak. The first aspect is allegations that some of those present do not care about the future of the OFO. However, the sheer number of arguments and the emotion that these individuals have clearly been seen to put behind their arguments testifies against such poisonous allegations. All serious contributors to this debate are fully committed to the spirit and the principles of the Osiris Fraternal Order. These are the principles that guided those who drove Empire from Osiris, and which, I believe, continue to guide those who hold power within the OFO

The second aspect of today’s debate which concerns me is the notion of an unprovoked attack by OFO on The Rejected Realms. Such an attack would no doubt be based solely on the respective ideologies of the regions. I am opposed to such an attack on principle due to what I perceive to be the facts of the matter. These are as follows. The first reason is that such an attack would be unlikely to be immediately and completely successful, leading to the situation of a drawn-out and mutually destructive war. The second reason is that such an attack would lend weight to the arguments of those who view Osiris as a “puppet” of some raider or imperialist elite. (If, indeed, such opinions exist.) For these reasons, I believe that we can agree that a cause-less invasion of the rejected realms is not in the best interest of Osiris currently, nor will it become one in the foreseeable future.

A third and final concerning aspect on which I feel I must speak is the seeming deficiency of civility that plagues today’s debate. The term “Fraternal,” implies love and respect for one another as well as a welcoming community. However, the actions of two prominent members of this community, including frequent, and often unfounded personal attacks against the other, seem juxtaposed to this “Fraternal” spirit. An outside observer, upon seeing this thread, could be led to the eventual (and false) conclusion that the community and atmosphere of Osiris have not changed since the coup which resulted in the birth of the OFO. I feel the need to implore all to maintain an atmosphere of professionalism, civility, and respect for the opinions of others within the Palace of the Deshret. For in truth, Osiris has changed since the coup, and it has changed for the better. When we banished Empire from our region, I would like to believe that we banished Greed, and Apathy, and Elitism, and Jealousy, and Hatred from it as well. Let us, through our speech and our actions, show Nationstates as a whole that the fraternal spirit is one of Trust, and Honor, and Respect, and Democracy, and Participation, and Diligence. Let us not become known as “Just another Osiris government,” but as the true and the greatest government of this region. In this, my honored colleagues, is where true success lies, not only for ourselves, but for Osiris, and for Nationstates as a whole.


On a quieter note, I would like to discuss my opinion of the issue at hand. I accept that it may be ill-informed, even naive, and is of little importance when compared to the opinions of my esteemed colleagues Venico, Cormac, and Cassius (as well as those others who have posted meaningful content here.) However, as an afterthought, I shall post it here anyway. I would firstly like to say that I applaud the intent of this agreement. There are several reasons, however, why I will vote Abstain on this issue, should it come to vote. The first is that it is far too soon for such a diplomatic agreement. For some time, Osiris was under the thumb of individuals aligned with the defender ideology. Needless to say, these individuals did nothing good for our region or its inhabitants. As such, resentment against this ideology is still too strong for such a measure to pass. Another reason for my decision is that there is little to persuade me that such an agreement would have a major tangible effect. Neither region seems truly able to attack the other without a long and mutually detrimental war. In addition, there is no real cause currently for either region to attack the other. From my perspective, it indeed seems, as others have suggested, that such a proposal could be interpreted as a waste of the Deshret’s time. Certainly, such a heated and unnecessary debate would seem to be such. Instead, my personal belief is that we should legislate on items more directly beneficial for our region.

So, that’s my two cents on the matter, please respond in whatever way you see fit or feel free to ignore my rambling post entirely. I wish you a good afternoon, good evening, or good night, depending on whatever time zone you happen to be in.

Sincerely Yours,
Vombatian Dreizhen

Beautiful speech on the other hand. Said better than i ever could

[War Wombat]

thanks, Andrew.

[Cormac]

Venico, you know we're not going to get a non-aggression pact with a defender UCR. We would gain everything and they would gain nothing. They're defenders, not morons.

Your argument that The Rejected Realms is inactive now, compared to whenever you last looked at them (which had to have been some time ago, as they haven't been inactive in some time), is not reality.

Nonetheless I'm tired of arguing about this, so if the Deshret wants to reject this treaty and make our government and indeed our entire region look ridiculous, have at it.

Thank you for your post, War Wombat.

[Venico]

We'll never know until we ask, but I suppose that's fodder for another topic.

[Cormac]

We'll never know until we ask, but I suppose that's fodder for another topic.

The goal of this agreement was for Osiris to present itself as diplomatically credible by agreeing to non-aggression with a fellow Sinker, not for us to be opportunistic by agreeing to non-aggression against any old foundered, defender UCR that we can't even attack but that could attack us. The point is improving relations with fellow GCRs, not grabbing a non-aggression pact with any defender region that might be interested.

Even if some defender UCR would be stupid enough to agree to a non-aggression pact with us, it would serve no purpose for us other than a region that can't feasibly attack us anyway saying they won't. It would serve no diplomatic purpose at all, other than to make us look like opportunists -- and pathetic ones at that, seeking non-aggression from defender UCRs that are beneath us and that we shouldn't even be worried about attacking us. If they can't liberate our raids I don't think overthrowing our Delegate will be a problem.

In short, we won't be asking while I'm Scribe of Foreign Affairs, so I guess we won't know.

[Venico]

that are beneath us and that we shouldn't even be worried about attacking us. If they can't liberate our raids I don't think overthrowing our Delegate will be a problem

And a NAP with TRR is just as futile. Their ground forces are even less than TITO's and we are not at a risk of either invading us. Neither are really at a risk of being raided by us either. But what we gain from TITO is strengthening relations with a region that A) Is relevant and B) could actually be of use to cultural and certain military activities. Along with whatever good press you think we'll get from buddying up to a defender org.

You keep saying fellow Sinker, fellow GCR. Why should we care if it's a sinker or a GCR? Why should we look to further relations based on something that these regions were born with and cannot change? That'd be like going out and trying to improve relations with people based on skin color or height. It's...dumb.

10KI is a stronger region than TRR and quite frankly your statement there applies to TRR more than TITO. They are beneath us and we shouldn't even be worried about them attacking us.

I don't support a foreign policy of pursuing relations with regions based off of tags that cannot be changed and the way regions were born.

[Cormac]

Okay, for starters, XKI won't even have embassies with regions that raid anyone they're not in a declared war with. So let's just stop discussing XKI as a serious possibility.

Secondly, the point is not better relations with "a defender region." The point is better relations with Feeders and Sinkers, and The Rejected Realms is one that happens to be defender. The point of improving relations with them is demonstrating that we are reasonable enough to make relations with them a priority because they are a fellow Sinker, despite also being a defender region and ideologically at odds with us. The point is not to just have better relations with any defender region, as having better relations with defender UCRs with which we literally have nothing in common makes even less sense than improving relations with The Rejected Realms.

"Sinker" isn't just a tag. The Rejected Realms is similar in political structure, similar in its vulnerabilities, similar in its standing in world affairs to us. I can understand the argument that the things we have in common aren't enough to warrant a non-aggression pact, though I disagree, but I can't understand the argument that all we have in common is a tag. That tag carries more with it than just the tag.

And finally, I don't understand the argument that The Rejected Realms is inactive and irrelevant. It simply isn't true. You're describing The Rejected Realms you remember from an earlier period, I think, and haven't looked at it recently. They have a pretty active regional community at the moment and the RRA is one of the largest regional military forces in the FRA, so the idea that they couldn't contribute anything culturally or militarily, if we wanted to pursue that (which, by the way, I personally don't, as this is just a non-aggression pact), is just not accurate.

[Venico]

I guess it comes down to you want to pursue relations with Feeders and Sinkers and I don't feel a need to. *shrug* Differences of opinion there and I don't think our debate is swaying anyone including each other. xD