Damn kids, you've given me a lot to address. I'll try to get it done, I guess, this time just in chronological order by user because I think it's easier.
First things first, as there's really no need in my mind to quote the segment, Koth brings up some
fantastic points that everybody should read over and consider, even if they've already read them over once. He keeps it real and gets blunt with the issue. Any region would be lucky to have someone with his tireless dedication and good insight, even if he might deny he has it. Seriously, read his post, really think about it. Whether you're a supporter of this proposal or not, we're all Osirans, and we're all hopefully doing what we believe is best for the region.
Now for the meat and potatoes of this debate.
Zeorus wrote: I will note that the Pharaoh's conditions, though legal, are not, in my opinion, in the spirit of the law
See, the thing is, I'm proposing a proposal. Why shouldn't I, as author of the proposal, have the right to deem it how I see fit. If people wish to do them separately, as I have established already, they can simply go and do it. The point of the whole proposal, as I extensively outline, is to have them done all at once for the meaning of it. Sure we could pick and choose and remove the bans for who we want when we feel like it, but that just continues the petty politicking that seems to infect our great region every once in a while.
Zeorus wrote:What strikes me as odd about this proposal is that none of the four aforementioned members of Empire have been lobbying to be let back into Osiris. Even if they were, however, Koth is right to point out that the fight against the stranglehold these four held over Osiris transcends the law and society of the Osiris Fraternal Order. It is indeed our ethos, our very reason for being.
Although I cannot occupy the same place of honor held by our three founders, I recall as well the sacrifice and toil put into the formation of our Fraternal Order. I am not yet ready to forget that.
What makes that odd, though? This proposal isn't being made because of some sort of lobbying by those individuals, nor do I really consider that a relevant factor. This proposal's general sum-up is that it's a sort of culmination of the ideals of Osiris, in my mind, with the symbolic removals being very key to the whole thing. Sure we can wait for them to lobby, perhaps decide to let some in, but there's way less opportunity for making something ultimately positive and strongly symbolic out of it as there is with this. Moving on, though as I've said, I respect that specific line of reasoning for the continuation of the ban, I don't necessarily agree with it. I don't believe the ethos of Osiris should be that fight, that whole incident. Yes it is what caused the founding of the OFO, though some other details do seem to be skimmed over, but continuing to live in that moment as some sort of a way to cling to glory is not regional identity, it's glorifying the past. We have a regional identity as Osirans, we don't need to play act as if we're some sort of wounded warriors recovering from this never ending struggle against "The Empire". Our reason for being should be a stable and open community within Osiris, ensuring further prosperity for the region, and we should develop accordingly with that rather than with a long-standing grudge. Though I realize some may not be ready to forget that yet, if not now then when? It's been years at this point, these individuals have been banned from Osiris for longer than they even participated in it. How long is long enough, and when does it simply become a continued excuse?
Rogamark wrote: Do the people Pharaoh seeks to un-PNG pose a threat to Osiris? Even if all of them were to return, is it likely they would try something? In my opinion, the answers seem to be no and no, and all statements to the contrary exclusively focus on what they've done in the past. And while it is understood that this is often a good indicator for how people are going to act, I'm also mindful that a PNG should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and clear cases, and the people in question are neither. The declarations were completely and utterly justified while Osiris was in crisis mode and needed to take every precaution, but they do not pass the test these days. And even if the repeal turns out to be a mistake, Osiris has ways to deal with troublemakers, it seems.
Councilor Rogamark's point here is the part that really sticks out to me, as it's better put than I could have put it. All these cries of security reasons, all these claims that their return will mark the Osiran End of Days, and all other similar remarks seem to be stuck in this belief that those individuals comprise some sort of untouchable bogeyman, and that Osiris is so weak and fragile that we can't possible hope to stay strong enough to hold ourselves up against it. If people legitimately believe that Osiris could be subverted by the return of anybody on the list of people I wish to remove the bans of, I would argue those people need to have more faith in the Osiran community and our ability to stay sovereign. Stop acting like we're some unstable warzone, Osiris is one of the most stable Game Created Regions at the moment, and with hard work and everyone doing their part we will only get more stable. As can be best demonstrated with The Empire's coup of The East Pacific, what does breed takeovers are factors like isolation, inactivity, and complacency. Unless you plan on being complacent and inactive without any aim to help grow the region, in which case why are you in Osiris man, then we'll be fine.
Lord Ravenclaw wrote:I do not think, based on my experience in Foreign Affairs that Osiris' treaties will hold with any of the regions who sent soldiers to secure Osiris in December 2013 UNLESS they are kept in the loop at all levels of this from the Pharaoh personally. This is no idle decision, this is no minor legislative matter. This proposal deals with the unbanning of the four people that a huge piling force was called in to help remove. A huge piling force nations from Balder, LKE, TNI, Albion, Europeia, TBH, TBR and goodness knows who else. They threw all they had at Osiris to give three people a chance at removing what they thought was a very real threat to the community of Osiris and to give the region a second chance.
Since you're choosing to be blunt, I'll be blunt back. If we're really implying that regions of the Imperialist and Invader sphere, particularly in the case of groups like TBH and TBR, but still applicable in the cases of TNI, LKE, Albion, etc, helped the Osiris Fraternal Order coup because of some moralistic nonsense about restoring a second chance to the region and removing "a real threat to the community of Osiris", I strongly question the goals of involved regions if that's a true implication. First of all, in the case of the two major invader regions, The Black Riders and The Black Hawks, most of them couldn't give two shits. Hell, many of those involved from those regions didn't just lack any sort of moral reason for it, they lamented the fact that Osiris was going to become an actual community rather than some raider dump and left grumbling. There's no morals here for the Imperialists and Independents either, it's just good business. Osiris was going from a moderate defender GCR to a strong invader GCR, it makes perfect sense for Invasion-Oriented regions to then support that operation to ensure it happens. While I'm sure I'll certainly get some counter claims arguing it was just "morals", it seems pretty easy to me to identify an opportunity that was taken. I'm not at all trying to knock down the importance of the help that the OFO received, all those regions were vital to the Order's continuation, but a moral argument with their involvement seems beyond likely.
As for those treaties holding, based on my experience in Foreign Affairs, I'm rather confident they will hold just fine. Given that this thread is public for viewing, and seems to be the news across all of NS at this point, I very much doubt the leaders of our treatied allies haven't heard about it by now. If they have, many have my Skype, the rest know my IRC and nation, and I am always open to discuss said matter. It does not matter what we think, it matters what we know, and what I know is that I have not had one ally contact me expressing any sort of concern about this matter. I feel that I can cultivate a positive working relationship with the heads of all of our allies, and already have it with some, so it shouldn't be an issue for them to come to me if they wish to discuss it. This is an Osiran matter, and I feel no obligations to go and invite other regions decide our domestic policy for us. They can discuss it with me and express concerns, sure, but I will not go to them first as if I need their permission.
Raven wrote:Consultation with your allies is a vital thing and Osiris is no minor UCR where people don't care about what happens. No, what happens in Osiris does not effect any other region unless people decide to make it personal, but it is a region which constantly has the eye of at least three Feeders watching for any signs of past strife.
Those feeders can talk to me at any time, then. If they're really wishing to get offended about Empire being let back in, then I'd encourage them to perhaps let the region that actually had to deal with the group decide what it's doing. Afterall, The East Pacific has had both Dalimbar and Neenee back in it without any issues, and I haven't seen any secret feeder cabal loudly complaining to them about it. What makes Osiris different?
Raven wrote:If this passes and Biyah returns to Osiris? Then what will happen? I don't want to return to that time of Biyah dominated politics. I don't want to deal with that level of shit again.
As I outlined earlier, this seems to stem from some sort of paranoia that their return will signal the doom of Osiris again. If you really wish to judge the community that poorly that you believe it could be subverted, then I consider that part of the issue we have in Osiris. This victim complex is not a good thing for the region. We're a fucking great place, and people should focus on that, on our continued stability, on our increased activity in areas such as Roleplay, rather than some crazy hypotheticals about what could happen if "X returns and does Y". I for one think someone trying to subvert Osiris would have far more of an issue than they would before the Order.
The others on that list are symbolism, and I don't think Dali or Neenee will actually do anything to Osiris on their own without provocation.
Yeah, the symbolic nature of it is something I already heavily outlined in my opening post. People keep saying "but isn't it just symbolic" and I'm just like "Yeah, man, I literally say that". As for the line about Dali and Neenee, that's just ambiguous man. Hell, you could argue every individual with intent to harm does it under some sort of level of provocation. If we're really worrying about "provocation" based hypotheticals, let's just wrap up in bubble wrap and stop posting entirely out of fear of provoking something.
Douria was used as an example in the thread. He shouldn't have been allowed back either, it was a done deal and I felt unable to stop it without causing conflict... not that it mattered since that came anyway.
This seems ignorant, to be perfectly honest, and confirms the idea of second chances in my mind. Sure, I'm not a big fan of Douria, but he helped write our State Code, he served admirably as Keeper, served as Vizier, even as acting Delegate, before choosing to retire. He epitomizes the idea that second chances aren't bad pretty well in my mind, given how much he's done for the region, even after causing the stress and chaos that the 2013 Gatesville Coup created. If we need another example of second chances, take yours truly. Back when I joined the region in 2012, I was indicted on treason charges for alleged acts of treason. I spent something like four to five months hopping from trial to trial, until finally being given a second chance via a Plea Bargain by then-Pharaoh Lyanna Stark. I guess I'm actually on a second second chance because I was also declared Persona Non Grata on the inception of the Osiris Fraternal Order. After being unbanned in the Kemetic Republic, I dutifully served as Vizier of Foreign Affairs, Wali of the Medjai Guard, Sobek of the Medjai Guard, within the Sepatarchy, as an Administrative Team member, and picked up two Commendations of Osiris. After being unbanned in the Osiris Fraternal Order, I think I only really need to point out that this is my third time being elected as Pharaoh. By the time this term ends, I will have been Osiris Pharaoh for about 30% of the time the Osiris Fraternal Order has been in existence. Yes, please tell me Second Chances aren't a thing.
Raven wrote:If something happens to harm Osiris because of one of the people on that list should this proposal be passed then... I am walking away from this region.
This, this is the mentality that I see so often from people that annoys me so much. While I believe this proposal is of no danger to Osiris, and dismiss claims that it is as silly, it's opinions like this that piss me off. If one is truly invested and cares about a region, I struggle to see how they can say "Okay, but if we fuck up here, I'm just going to bail". People in NS need to stand for something, man, and what better than your region you've put plenty of time in. As I said, there's no threat, foreign or diplomatic, from passing this proposal, but if something does happen, you can be sure as hell that I will be on the front lines ensuring that Osiris stays as fucking great as it is.
Andrew wrote:perhaps in good time. But this is not a good time.
And why isn't it? Sorry for not sugarcoating this proposal for all the people that want to let "wounds heal". Our wounds have healed already, anybody still claiming they haven't is either acting on personal motivations or is just wrong. I'm sorry for being frank, but that's how it is. Look at Osiris, are we some war-torn dump trying to figure out how to recover from the evil grip of the Empire? No, not even close. We're a great region, with great people, and a vibrant history, that should be looking to keep moving forward rather than living in some sort of glorified past. If we "can't assume anything" then why do we even bother trying? Why do we let new citizens in, afterall we can't assume they're not subversive. Why do we recruit, afterall, we can't assume they'll come. Sure, if people want to be complacent and wrap Osiris up in bubble wrap like we're some precious china doll that can't get a few chips, then go for it. But I struggle to see how this is a viable reason for opposing this proposal, given that such a mentality just seems to be a more refined application of baseless paranoia.
Koth wrote:I do not believe that this proposal will bear any extreme consequences to the security of this region, because Tim and I have our shit together, and even if we didn't, I believe that this is no longer a community that would be swayed by those individuals the way they were 2 years ago.
Have I mentioned to you people that listening to a dose of Koth every day is great for the health?
Ivo wrote:Given the entirely symbolic nature of the removal of PNGs on former Empire members due to the fact that none of these semi-retirees are likely to productively participate in Osiran affairs, I'm not seeing any plus side to it.
I'm curious why the Pharaoh chose to include these terms in an "all-or-nothing" proposal that includes unrelated conditions such as the full pardon of Cormac Stark, however.
It's 4am and I'm really tired of this thread, so I'll just direct Counselor Montresor-Stark to the opening post of the thread, which he doesn't seem to have bothered reading, which outlines exactly why the symbolic nature and why the "all or nothing" nature of this proposal is important. There's a whole thing about turning the new leaf and moving on from this victim complex we seem to have associated ourselves, and how "all or nothing" strikes against the typical petty conspiring and behind-the-scenes dealing that usually comes with such deals, a point that seems to have had its irony lost on people given that conspiring and behind-the-scenes dealing is exactly what is happening with this proposal if rumors are true.
Finally done with that, damn. Keep posting folks, at the very least, activity is great.
