[Draft] Constitution of the Osiris Fraternal Order

[Tim Stark]

Tim has big opinion, listen to Tim.

Right, so clearly I outlined issues I had with the Version 2 of the Constitutional Re-Write. With my one qualm that I raised to Cormac regarding the Deshret now resolved, I think this really just leaves the Atef section to be fleshed out. Now, I'm still not certain about this and am not positive that it's the best plan for us.

However, the points Cormac has raised regarding government stagnation are undeniable. This Deshret has passed very little, and although Ainocra has certainly done an admirable job in increasing its productivity, we need other members to also step up and do stuff. Our executive branch has certainly been stagnant in the past, though I'm very much hoping to change that, and think that I have had a more active Hedjet than in the terms past. Our Pshent, was composed of three individuals whose first priority in terms of NS commitments was certainly not to Osiris, and though that isn't their fault, it's not the most reassuring thing for our Government Officials. With the Atef, I've literally never spoken to James (Dalter) and actually had to be reminded who he is. Revert (Luna Amore) is certainly more active, and is active elsewhere in NS, but is also in a similar position of forum inactivity. Though I certainly hope we can get them both to be more forum active, and I feel that Luna Amore, at least, could be, it definitely does raise questions in hypotheticals of coups. Furthermore, he's right in that we have a bureaucracy-laden system that limits actual activity. Honestly, our government right now, if you take away the elected Sepatarchy and introduce the Deshret, looks very much like that of the KRO, and that's not a good thing.

Therefore, I am, at this point in time, in support of Option 2 for the Constitutional Re-Write.

The few issues that I'd like to address regarding the Atef are ones that I think we can flesh out pretty well, after some thought, so my concern for that area has significantly diminished from what it was before:

First of all, I think that rather than a unanimous decision needed for removal of citizenship, we should likely put it at 75%. When 3/4 members of the Atef all agree that someone's citizenship should be removed, it seems appropriate for that to be done. Unanimity is far harder to attain, and requires all folks to put aside all sentiment on the issue, which may be tough to do if the citizen needed to be removed is also the friend of one of the Atef. Given that the Atef can be recalled by the Deshret, there's definitely a check in place so that any Atef members whose ability to be a proper member of that body is compromised can be removed. The same obviously goes with a situation in which the Atef is clearly denying citizens out of a faction-based bias, and hopefully those who are appointed Atef are capable enough to actually be Osirans in their actions rather than subversive Foreign Agents.

Although this Atef does show inspiration from TRR's Citizenship Council in admission of citizens, one factor of that is that this system works very well in TRR. It's a bit slower than most, but it's efficient and it still gets the job done. The two things I'd want there as provisions, are that all citizenship applications must still be subject to Administrative approval, and that, perhaps, there be some sort of provision that would exclude Atef members who are away on things such as announced LOAs from being part of the needed majority. I might be wrong on that latter idea, but it seems to me that it'd allow for a bit quicker process than potentially having to wait for one of the Atef members to get back. Also, if Admin Checks don't need to be mentioned in the Constitution and are just a given, then pay no mind to that suggestion.

Another thing, and this is obviously not Atef related, but I think that the Pharaoh should still keep a veto on legislation, which can be overridden by 2/3 majority. The Pharaoh, in my mind, is also the community leader, and one of the things that matters very much to a community is a unified feeling. For example, if the Deshret very controversially passes a bill 10 to 9, this is clearly something very divisive in the region. The veto would allow for the Pharaoh to send it back to the Legislature to prevent a fractured community, as if they re-pass it by a 2/3 then it's certainly a less problematic issue then. Furthermore, in the current way the system is set up, there seem to be very few checks set on the Deshret, which could allow for the increased rise of factionalism. With the Pharaoh being able to strike down any ridiculous laws, it prevents any factions from pushing something similar to a 51% attack, and forcing at least some bipartisanship on bills between our various folks here.

Some food for thought, but would it be a good idea to legislate the Administrative Team of Osiris into the Constitution? The Spiritus Constitution, as that's the other Constitution I'm most familiar with, has the following listed for its Administrative Team:

Spoiler

Administration

38. The Spirit shall hold the Founder and Root Administrator accounts for the region of Spiritus and its offsite forum. The Spirit shall hold this position until he resigns from it. This position shall not be construed as a public office in government.

39. The Spirit shall have the power to appoint his successor in the event of his resignation.

40. The Spirit shall have the power to appoint forum administrators and moderators at his discretion and to give them such administrative and moderation powers as he deems necessary and proper. No government official shall be entitled to administrative or moderation power.

41. The Spirit shall have the power and duty to protect the forum from content that violates the terms of service established by the forum's host. This power and duty shall supersede the Declaration of Rights.

.Obviously that's more UCR Centered, but might it be an idea to legislate that in, so people can't even marginally question the right of the Admin Team to execute actions via the Terms of Service, and stuff like that. It would seem like a nobrainer regardless, but you know how some people can be. It seems that it might be a bit of adtditional insurance regarding how our entire Osiran System works.

Finally, I think that before we pass this (if we pass this), we should sit down and figure out which previous Laws we will also want to instantly pass again, and which ones can leave to be repealed forever. This is more to time save than anything else, since we don't want to be arguing about what's necessary and what's not for weeks after we have a new Constitution. I'll leave it to those that know our other laws better to decide that. Note: I'm only referring to the big things like the Holidays and Honors Act, or the Rights of Citizens. Stuff like treaties, I imagine, will be things with slightly more heated discussion and potential renegotiation of terms.

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Those are my two cents on the matter, but I'm casting tentative support for this now and encourage Cormac to un-withdraw it.


Also my apologies to Cormac for initially shooting it down without consideration. I'm bad at being open-minded >_>

[Ainocra]

I just had another thought to add as well

this would effectively repeal all passed law, it would also affect PNG's and Pardons passed by the Deshret. Those should be exempted I think and remain in force.

[Cormac]

First of all, I think that rather than a unanimous decision needed for removal of citizenship, we should likely put it at 75%. When 3/4 members of the Atef all agree that someone's citizenship should be removed, it seems appropriate for that to be done. Unanimity is far harder to attain, and requires all folks to put aside all sentiment on the issue, which may be tough to do if the citizen needed to be removed is also the friend of one of the Atef. Given that the Atef can be recalled by the Deshret, there's definitely a check in place so that any Atef members whose ability to be a proper member of that body is compromised can be removed. The same obviously goes with a situation in which the Atef is clearly denying citizens out of a faction-based bias, and hopefully those who are appointed Atef are capable enough to actually be Osirans in their actions rather than subversive Foreign Agents.

3/4 is certainly doable, and I've gone ahead and made that change in Section 3.6. Please note I'm now only editing version 2, because it's clear we won't be pursuing version 1.

Although this Atef does show inspiration from TRR's Citizenship Council in admission of citizens, one factor of that is that this system works very well in TRR. It's a bit slower than most, but it's efficient and it still gets the job done. The two things I'd want there as provisions, are that all citizenship applications must still be subject to Administrative approval, and that, perhaps, there be some sort of provision that would exclude Atef members who are away on things such as announced LOAs from being part of the needed majority. I might be wrong on that latter idea, but it seems to me that it'd allow for a bit quicker process than potentially having to wait for one of the Atef members to get back. Also, if Admin Checks don't need to be mentioned in the Constitution and are just a given, then pay no mind to that suggestion.

I was assuming admin checks were just implied, but I've gone ahead and added language there to Section 3.5. I've also added a provision to Section 3.7 that only votes cast over a seven day period will count toward the vote on citizenship, to ensure that inactive or LoA members don't hold up granting of citizenship.

I also added a provision to Section 3.8 that citizens admitted to citizenship within seven days of a scheduled election or after initiation of a special election can't vote in that election.

Another thing, and this is obviously not Atef related, but I think that the Pharaoh should still keep a veto on legislation, which can be overridden by 2/3 majority. The Pharaoh, in my mind, is also the community leader, and one of the things that matters very much to a community is a unified feeling. For example, if the Deshret very controversially passes a bill 10 to 9, this is clearly something very divisive in the region. The veto would allow for the Pharaoh to send it back to the Legislature to prevent a fractured community, as if they re-pass it by a 2/3 then it's certainly a less problematic issue then. Furthermore, in the current way the system is set up, there seem to be very few checks set on the Deshret, which could allow for the increased rise of factionalism. With the Pharaoh being able to strike down any ridiculous laws, it prevents any factions from pushing something similar to a 51% attack, and forcing at least some bipartisanship on bills between our various folks here.

I can compromise and include an executive veto, though again, I think the Pharaoh works for the people and should not be telling them no. I've included it as Section 1.8.

Some food for thought, but would it be a good idea to legislate the Administrative Team of Osiris into the Constitution?

Generally, Osiris has avoided much legislation in regard to the admin team. I do already have its power to protect the forum and the forum community, OOC, broadly included as Section 4.2. I tend to find that language sufficient, personally.

Finally, I think that before we pass this (if we pass this), we should sit down and figure out which previous Laws we will also want to instantly pass again, and which ones can leave to be repealed forever. This is more to time save than anything else, since we don't want to be arguing about what's necessary and what's not for weeks after we have a new Constitution. I'll leave it to those that know our other laws better to decide that. Note: I'm only referring to the big things like the Holidays and Honors Act, or the Rights of Citizens. Stuff like treaties, I imagine, will be things with slightly more heated discussion and potential renegotiation of terms.

There aren't many we'll want to keep, as this will be incompatible with most of them. But I can go through and look for the ones that will still be compatible.

Also my apologies to Cormac for initially shooting it down without consideration. I'm bad at being open-minded >_>

It's all right, I shouldn't have over-reacted either. Thank you for reconsidering.

[Cormac]

I just had another thought to add as well

this would effectively repeal all passed law, it would also affect PNG's and Pardons passed by the Deshret. Those should be exempted I think and remain in force.

I don't think they should. This constitution includes no power of pardon, nor anything about PNGs. The Atef would review any citizenship application and either accept or reject it; either acceptance or rejection can be appealed to the Deshret. There is no reason for pardon or PNG; the Deshret can decide on a case by case basis -- in theory, every citizenship application if it really wanted to -- whether to allow someone to hold citizenship here.

[Tim Stark]

Thanks for the changes, and the compromise on the Delegate's Veto. While the Pharaoh does work for the citizens, some checks and balances are still necessary in my mind.! Also, after checking 4.2, that certainly does seem sufficient.

Pending some catastrophic issue with this that may be discovered, consider me in full support of this Constitutional Re-Write.

[Cormac]

Thanks for the changes, and the compromise on the Delegate's Veto. While the Pharaoh does work for the citizens, some checks and balances are still necessary in my mind.! Also, after checking 4.2, that certainly does seem sufficient.

Pending some catastrophic issue with this that may be discovered, consider me in full support of this Constitutional Re-Write.

[Ainocra]

Election cycles should be put in too for at least the pharaoh and vizier


The Pharaoh and Vizier of the Osiris Fraternal Order will have a term of three months.

possibly for the Keeper as well

[Andrew]

Firstly, I'm glad you have decided to bring this back to the debating table Cormac, truly

Anyways, I do prefer the Second Version. I do like the idea of an open Deshret to maximize Deshreti activity, get a greater input on legislation and to minimize the Keepers administrative responsibilities. I, like Tim, also agree that there is a need for a veto to also further provide a needed check of balance; keeping in mind that the Deshret can override it if it pleases. But seeing as though there are very few need majorities for certain things to pass, I was wondering on why there isn't a specific needed majority to recall elected officials or the insurance, as placed in the current state code "Unless otherwise noted by this Code, all decisions by the Deshret will be made by simple majority vote." or are they both not necessary?

I do also like the amendments made to the Atef. I have expressed concern over the forum inactivity of some Guardians which could create a fault within our security system, but it is finally good to see that that it is being addressed. Perhaps this extra responsibility will compel Guardians to be more active and feel their presence is greater needed in the Community they serve.

I also like the amendments made to the Executive. I like the idea of an elected Vizer rather than an appointed one and I see mandatory ministries has been taken out which can prove as a good thing. However, some of the titles that I really liked are gone such as 'Commander-in-Chief' or 'Chief Diplomat' , but I'll survive Just for clarification, are Scribes elected or appointed?

There are somethings that haven't been too greatly debated, or I haven't paid enough attention about, such as the Judiciary. If we abolish it, what then? Do we move on to a case-by-case system where a Court is erected when required or not at all? This then moves onto criminal law, shall criminal legislation be established should we not have a judiciary or something else?

Also, as expressed by other individuals, election law such as term limits and election administration; I imagine that would be placed in statutory law, correct? But some things that have also not been addressed; Bill of Rights, what be of a Bill of Rights for Nation or Citizens?

[Cormac]

Election cycles should be put in too for at least the pharaoh and vizier


The Pharaoh and Vizier of the Osiris Fraternal Order will have a term of three months.

possibly for the Keeper as well

I think that can be done by statute, which will also make it easier to change if we want a longer or shorter term in the future. Remember, the threshold for amending this constitution is 3/4.

Firstly, I'm glad you have decided to bring this back to the debating table Cormac, truly

Anyways, I do prefer the Second Version. I do like the idea of an open Deshret to maximize Deshreti activity, get a greater input on legislation and to minimize the Keepers administrative responsibilities. I, like Tim, also agree that there is a need for a veto to also further provide a needed check of balance; keeping in mind that the Deshret can override it if it pleases. But seeing as though there are very few need majorities for certain things to pass, I was wondering on why there isn't a specific needed majority to recall elected officials or the insurance, as placed in the current state code "Unless otherwise noted by this Code, all decisions by the Deshret will be made by simple majority vote." or are they both not necessary?

The "Unless otherwise noted" clause is in fact in Section 1.9. The majority needed for recall isn't mentioned because it's currently a simple majority needed, which means it doesn't need to be specifically noted.

I do also like the amendments made to the Atef. I have expressed concern over the forum inactivity of some Guardians which could create a fault within our security system, but it is finally good to see that that it is being addressed. Perhaps this extra responsibility will compel Guardians to be more active and feel their presence is greater needed in the Community they serve.

That was my hope as well.

I also like the amendments made to the Executive. I like the idea of an elected Vizer rather than an appointed one and I see mandatory ministries has been taken out which can prove as a good thing. However, some of the titles that I really liked are gone such as 'Commander-in-Chief' or 'Chief Diplomat' , but I'll survive Just for clarification, are Scribes elected or appointed?

The Pharaoh and Vizier would both have the power to appoint deputies, so Scribes would be appointed. They would not require Deshret confirmation under this new constitution either.

There are somethings that haven't been too greatly debated, or I haven't paid enough attention about, such as the Judiciary. If we abolish it, what then? Do we move on to a case-by-case system where a Court is erected when required or not at all? This then moves onto criminal law, shall criminal legislation be established should we not have a judiciary or something else?

There wouldn't be a judiciary at all. The Atef would be able to remove citizenship for obvious, serious crimes, such as forum destruction or treason. If someone contests that they committed the act their citizenship has been removed for, they will be able to appeal to the Deshret. This is a simplified way to address these kinds of situations without all the legalism that lets people who are obviously guilty get off on technicalities, and it also eliminates the need for complex and under-used judicial systems, an under-used justice priesthood, etc.

Also, as expressed by other individuals, election law such as term limits and election administration; I imagine that would be placed in statutory law, correct? But some things that have also not been addressed; Bill of Rights, what be of a Bill of Rights for Nation or Citizens?

Yes, election law would be statutory. I was thinking a bill of rights would be as well, but if we would prefer for that to be constitutional, I can work it into the draft.

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This got kind of pushed aside earlier, but would everyone be okay with using easily recognizable Egyptian titles (like Pharaoh and Vizier) but switching to English titles for other things that might be confusing (e.g., Assembly instead of Deshret)? This would also allow for more theme flexibility if the titles aren't constitutionally defined, and we want to make sure that newcomers are able to decipher what and where everything is.

[Andrew]

I'm just wondering how that kind of judicial organisation would work. Empowering the Atef with some judicial responsibility, in practice if not in law. And why would the Vizer need to appoint Scribes?