[PROP] Oh The Times They Are A Changin'

[Plagentine]

I have to agree with what the people before me already mentioned, and abstain from the proposal.

[Tomb]

I'd like to say as well - that Pharaoh cannot dictate to the Deshret how and when it votes on anything. I would recommend to the Keeper the following:

1. This motion is separated into options, with each aye, nay, abstain available or that each person is given a separate vote. (The Pharaoh cannot say this is an all or nothing proposal. It doesn't work that way.)

2. This is moved to the Deshret conference room.

3. As a brief reminder, the Pharaoh is a non-voting member of the Deshret and may vote in elections (Section 3.1a), so their votes on this will be symbolic. The Deshret is also able to act as it sees fit, given that the Pharaoh is accountable to it, and not the other way around.

Your recommendations are noted and appreciated, Raven.

[Kajan]

I would vote for a pardon, but the people I want back - their sentences expire soon.

[Tomb]

I have not had the chance to fully comment on this since I was busy at the time Tim wrote it, but I’m available now. First of all, as Raven said, the Pharaoh has no jurisdiction or authority to make this an “all or nothing” proposal. If it gets enough motions to be voted upon, I will be putting each of the individuals separately to vote (in the same thread, though), just like when confirming Hedjet and Pschent members.

Second of all, I am personally opposed to most of the overturns that the Pharaoh is suggesting. I believe that Raven and Koth have really fleshed out the argument against proceeding with this, and I can't help but be convinced by them.

[Datford-Zyvetskistaahn]

If I may, the pardons cannot be made without the Pharaoh's agreement, and, while the Pharaoh has agreed to the pardons that agreement is conditional to all of personae non gratae declarations and pardons being passed, so without passing all of them, endeavouring to pass just the pardon of Cormac, for instance, would not do anything. Presuming that the Pharaoh doesn't wish to change the conditions of his agreement.

EDIT: This is not to say, of course, that certain of the personae non gratae declarations could not be set aside, just that the pardons could not be made.

[Koth]

I'm not in favor of the Pharaoh strongarming that loophole into the Deshret, but what can you do, eh?

[The Almighty Jesus Whale]

I think it is a great step towards showing that our region can be compassionate and forgiving rather than cold hearted and reactionary, something that seems to happen a lot.

I have not been in Osiris as long as most members, and I can not begin to imagine anything that they have gone through in the past, but that's just it. It was the past and it is time to move on.

Harboring grudges and ill feelings about past events does no one any good, mentally and emotionally might I add, and taking steps to right wrongs and past grievances is something that will do a good many a lot of good.

We have to look past the faults and wrong of these individuals and see the good that they possess, forgive and move on, and welcome them back with open arms should they choose to return.

He was also given a pretty damn big mandate, so I bet you're all kicking yourselves >:P.

[Tim Stark]

Right, it seems I have a lot to reply to on this matter don't I? Sorry, this is going to result in a very lengthy post. I'm going to try to split it into parts rather than specific users, but honestly it's just going to be a jumble in the end.

"That would sink Osiran diplomatic credibility like a rock. I'd love to know how half of our allies would feel, and I can already predict the responses"

"The only people on that list who I think we could successfully allow back in are Cormac and although (let back in is symbolic), George Holland without considerable diplomatic and political backlash."

Really now? If you are carrying such critical information, then I encourage you to share it with the rest of the Deshret, or perhaps at least to the Pharaoh who is currently the complete and utter head of our Foreign Affairs Department. Hell, at the very least share it with the Deshret so they can make their opinion through actual factual evidence rather than this baseless fearmongering. I think it's frankly ridiculous, and unrealistic, to imply that we'd lose Foreign Relations over the removal of bans from the likes of Dalimbar and Neenee, when The East Pacific, the region that suffered for far longer and far more than us at their hand, is fully welcoming of them and has had Dalimbar as a member for years now. I'll be frank, I'm fully willing to call this out as the fearmongering that I believe it is. Unless those opposed to this in Osiris intend to use their roles in other regions to create this controversy, I frankly can't see how we would have "considerable political and diplomatic backlash". As for the political part, I'm already facing it. If it passes, it means the majority of the Deshret agrees with me, and any political backlash would come from a minority who lost via a democratic process. So, as said, if these diplomatic backlashes actually exist, please do inform me about them rather than just saying they exist.

I'm no diplomat, but i'm sure anyone can guess that people will get perturbed at this. I may not know the members of Empire on a personal level but I do know this, once you throw the guys that caused trouble out - you don't later let them back in due to 'changing times'. It's not wise to take unneccessary risk towards regional stability for such a reason.

You know, you say that, but it seems that The East Pacific is and continues to be a pretty effective counter to your statement. The East Pacific has indeed let members back in due to their conclusion that "Empire paranoia" is frankly idiotic. Also, as this is raised frequently throughout the thread, I'd really love a comprehensive explanation of how those members are more of a regional threat than anybody else. Any coordinated group with a common goal can do things, the way to counter it is to ensure that the government and the community are capable enough to manage to repel any such subversive influence. Are you implying that Osiris is still not capable of repelling subversive influence from Empire, which also assumes that those people for some reason even give a single damn about couping Osiris.

[Koth's segment]

Koth, I fully understand and respect your opinion on this matter. As one of the Founders of the Osiris Fraternal Order, you have more of a claim than anybody to talk about this than anybody else in the region aside from the other co-Founders. You fought that battle, helped make the OFO, and deserve all the plaudits you're received for that and subsequent success Osiris has seen. I would, as evident with my proposal, argue that it's actually a culmination of the Osiris Fraternal Order's goals of making an open and accepting community to come full circle and remove the bans to show that Osiris is more than stable enough to survive attempted subversion from various individuals. In the end, I think it's just a matter of perception and I'm more than fine having that difference.

I'd like to say as well - that Pharaoh cannot dictate to the Deshret how and when it votes on anything

That's true, and you feel free to say that. The Pharaoh cannot dictate to the Deshret how and when it votes on anything. However, as a non-voting member of the Deshret of the Osiris Fraternal Order. My proposal as a member of the Deshret is an "all or nothing" based proposal to pardon the individuals outline in the opening post. No, I don't dictate to the Deshret how or when it votes, but I certainly dictate my own proposal. If somebody wishes to go against every intent of the proposal, then they can propose their own version having separate removals. If they choose to do so, though, I would love them to also address the part where I point out the exact reason I'm proposing it as an "all or nothing" rather than ignoring it choosing to fearmonger or just not post instead. Afterall, it seems a bit cheating to say "Well why don't we just propose them individually instead" instead of actually addressing it like someone should in a proper debate.

"If I may, the pardons cannot be made without the Pharaoh's agreement, and, while the Pharaoh has agreed to the pardons that agreement is conditional to all of personae non gratae declarations and pardons being passed, so without passing all of them, endeavouring to pass just the pardon of Cormac, for instance, would not do anything. Presuming that the Pharaoh doesn't wish to change the conditions of his agreement." - Datford

"I'm not in favor of the Pharaoh strongarming that loophole into the Deshret, but what can you do, eh?" - Koth

Thanks for that observation, Datford, that is very certainly correct. This doesn't pass without my approval either way, given that I don't really intend to change the conditions of my proposal. Now, of course, as I'm not too keen on scheming behind the scenes about this proposal as I can imagine quite a few people are, I won't refuse to sign off on a proposal on the Persona Non Grata declarations separately. However, that will be separate proposals from mine, due to the reasons outlined above. It also would be just PNGs because Pardons, as outlined in the State Code, are done by the Pharaoh with the Deshret's sign-off and you all have received my terms for Cormac and Syl's pardons. So, yeah, if you guys want to submit your own proposals of it, go ahead, just keep the State Code in mind.

TAJW Post

10/10 to this post, except the last line because that'd be arrogant of me.

2. This is moved to the Deshret conference room.

Actually, about that. During my first term, I was told that as Pharaoh I get to decide what is disclosed from Deshret chambers and what is not. Given that, and the fact that I know very well where I intended to place this forum topic in the first place, I have moved it back to the Public Subforum of The Palace of the Deshret. If I had wanted it in the Private Area, I'd have put it there, and I hereby deem this thread of public disclosure given the gravity of the matter and the fact that I'd like public accountability for Deshreti statements and claims that are made within this thread. If this is over the line, I'd love to be informed how, because as said, I do believe disclosure of information lands in my court for at least a bit.

---

Finally, I'd like to present this supplemental essay from Cormac Stark, Co-Founder of the Osiris Fraternal Order, on why Empire should be unbanned.

Greetings to the Councilors of the Deshret. It's been a while since I was able to address the Deshret, and I thank the Pharaoh for giving me this indirect opportunity to do so.

I'm writing today not to advocate for my own pardon, but rather for repeal of the persona non grata declarations against four people I helped exile: Biyah, Dalimbar, Neenee, and New Kervoskia. As one of the three co-founders of the Osiris Fraternal Order, no one is more familiar with the reasons these individuals were forced into exile and have remained in exile for more than two years. I don't regret the decisions we made then. I continue to believe that these individuals, as a group, had consolidated so much power through such corrupt means that it was impossible for Osiris to move forward without their exile and without establishment of the kind of institutions we created for the Osiris Fraternal Order. I won't lie to you: Venico, Koth, and I always intended their exile to be permanent, we promised to fight any attempt to return them to the community, and I do not blame either of them if they are opposed to this as we all said we would be if ever this should happen.

My view on this has evolved with the passage of time because I've come to believe that no one should be deprived of a second chance in NationStates communities except for the most reprehensible out-of-character behavior, such as the OOC harassment in which Govindia and Unibot have engaged. Biyah, Dalimbar, Neenee, and New Kervoskia have spent more than two years in exile, roughly the same amount of time they spent in Osiris prior to their exile. At some point enough is enough. At some point, what was a just and noble goal to bring peace and order to Osiris and create a stable and fun regional community becomes nothing more than a continuation of years old, petty grudges. That isn't what this community was ever supposed to be when it was founded. This community and its government were supposed to be better than its predecessors, and there is nothing just, nothing noble, nothing right about permanently exiling four people who had poured much of their time and energy into Osiris, for years, without so much as a trial. That is exactly the kind of injustice that Detective Figs (Asta) and I so vehemently opposed in insisting on judicial reforms, which frequently brought us into conflict with Biyah. In continuing this injustice, Osiris risks once again becoming that which the Osiris Fraternal Order has always strenuously opposed.

It should be noted that while our justification for exiling these individuals was sound, the full truth is far more complex. Dalimbar was here from the very beginning of Osiris and was the first constitutional Pharaoh of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris. Biyah served with distinction in many roles in the Kemetic Republic, and for his service, particularly during Osiris' greatest time of need, I awarded him the Vigilant of Horus, along with Lord Ravenclaw, during the July 2013 coup of Osiris while I was serving as Pharaoh-in-Exile. Neenee and New Kervoskia also contributed much to Osiris, particularly during the July 2013 coup. While I stand behind the decision to exile them in December 2013, and continue to acknowledge their past wrongdoing, that is a picture that is, at best, only half complete. I also stand behind the things I said about Biyah's contributions in July 2013 when I awarded him the Vigilant of Horus, as well as the positive things I have in the past said about all of them and their commitment to Osiris, because those things are equally true. As with many things in NationStates and in life, this is not black and white, but some hard to identify shade of gray. Have these individuals been involved in wrongdoing? Absolutely. Have they also made some of the greatest contributions, shown some of the most steadfast dedication in Osiran history? Unequivocally. And that is what should make this decision such a difficult and deliberative one.

There will be doomsayers who will say that this will lead to the downfall of the Osiris Fraternal Order. I can understand their pessimism, because last year I warned of dire consequences if the community continued on its path and predicted that the Osiris Fraternal Order would collapse. Nearly a year later, I now know I was wrong, and so are the doomsayers today. The community and institutions behind the Osiris Fraternal Order are built to last; they are not the same house of cards as the Kemetic Republic of Osiris. Gone are the days when a small group can manipulate Osiris' institutions to consolidate massive power around themselves. What we must be vigilant about today is repeating past mistakes, slipping back toward old habits. A small group can't wreck Osiris anymore, but by living in the past and refusing to move on and move forward, the community as a whole can still wreck Osiris. That is the real threat in 2016.

The doomsayers may also argue that this will damage Osiris' reputation abroad. That couldn't be further from the truth. The interregional community would welcome yet more evidence that the community of Osiris has progressed and matured, and this would be another demonstration of progress. It's true, some regions may be concerned about the security impact, but Osiris could easily allay those concerns by adopting sensible reforms that should already be under consideration. The next phase in the Osiris Fraternal Order should be matching the strength of in-game security to the strength of off-site institutions Osiris has already established. Drastically raise the endorsement cap, encourage WA nations to endotart and help them do it, increase the pool of high endorsement and high influence nations. The right way to protect Osiris is to reform it to make consolidation of power so close to impossible that it becomes completely undesirable to try to accumulate power through nefarious means. The wrong way to protect Osiris is to permanently and unjustly exclude Osirans who contributed much to this region. Acting out of fear will not impress the interregional community, either current or potential allies. Offering second chances, and adopting sensible, rational policies to protect the region that focus on broad empowerment rather than exclusion -- that's the combination of actions that will demonstrate Osiris is finally a mature game-created region, and win us new allies.

The Osiris Fraternal Order took a leap of faith when it repealed the persona non grata declaration against Tim Stark at the urging of myself and others. Tim has since gone on to become an accomplished Pharaoh, the only consecutive two-term Pharaoh of the Osiris Fraternal Order thus far, now in his third non-consecutive term. That leap of faith obviously paid off. Not every second chance will turn out the same, and all will involve some level of risk. But if the Deshret hadn't taken the risk with Tim, where would the community be now? What else might Osiris miss if it refuses these second chances? I urge the Deshret to follow the very wise path your Pharaoh has set out for you, and to handle any risks involved through constructive reforms rather than destructive exclusions. I left this community a year ago uncertain if it would still be here, in this form, now. If I should be given a second chance to return to this community, it will be with a renewed faith that no individual, no group, and no empire can stand against the strength of the Osiran community. I hope you believe that too and I hope you will vote to repeal the persona non grata declarations against Biyah, Dalimbar, Neenee, and New Kervoskia, as well as the others your Pharaoh has proposed. This is the next big, necessary step in the evolution of the Osiris Fraternal Order.

Thank you all for your time and consideration.

Cormac Montresor-Stark
Pharaoh Emeritus of Osiris (2x)
Co-Founder of the Osiris Fratrernal Order

[Koth]

The Pharaoh and my brother figure in exile raise excellent points, which everyone on both sides should be reading and considering. It's beyond evident that we all care about Osiris, yet our views on what may be best for her deviate slightly at times.

There is not much for me to say that has not already been said. I will oppose this legislation not because I believe it will have far-reaching foreign affairs consequences, or whatever world ending bullshit has been thrown on the table. I oppose it not even because I wholeheartedly believe that given the chance, any number of the 4 players whose PNGs are up for removal would revel in the opportunity to get the last laugh (I do, though). I oppose this legislation because what the OFO meant when I was there in 2013 helping found the damn thing still stubbornly remains my reason to exist in this region.

I will not resort to calling out technicalities with this thread to ensure this proposal's failure. Just my perspective. I encourage the Deshret to remain civil about this discussion.

[shetef]

There is little I can offer as an opinion that has not already been aired before this august body. I will note that the Pharaoh's conditions, though legal, are not, in my opinion, in the spirit of the law, while not constituting as nefarious an abuse of power as the Pharaonic office has seen in the years since its inception.

I have not seen a convincing argument in this thread for the removal of their status as personae non gratae, although the Pharaoh and Pharaoh Emeritus bring up points worth considering. What strikes me as odd about this proposal is that none of the four aforementioned members of Empire have been lobbying to be let back into Osiris. Even if they were, however, Koth is right to point out that the fight against the stranglehold these four held over Osiris transcends the law and society of the Osiris Fraternal Order. It is indeed our ethos, our very reason for being.

Although I cannot occupy the same place of honor held by our three founders, I recall as well the sacrifice and toil put into the formation of our Fraternal Order. I am not yet ready to forget that.