Amendment to section 2;3;a; posthumus Discussion

Ainocra · Post by **Ainocra** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:18 pm

Well all executive powers are derived from the pharaoh. So he can appoint a special prosecutor should one be needed, and the ministry of justice is currently staffed. We do have deputies available to try cases should they be needed. So it isn't like removing this line would actually harm the ministry.

War Wombat · Post by **War Wombat** » Wed May 27, 2015 8:01 pm

Maybe the Keeper should serve in the position if no Justice Scribe exists. Balance of powers, sort of thing, you know?

Ainocra · Post by **Ainocra** » Wed May 27, 2015 8:11 pm

Not a bad idea but it does have a few problems. That would mean the Keeper doubling up on jobs, and since the powers are derived from the executive that would run counter to the separation of powers. I couldn't see that being needed unless it was the Pharaoh on trial.

Post by **Lord Ravenclaw** » Thu May 28, 2015 7:38 am

The Scribe of Justice is the one executive office besides that of Vizier that the Pharaoh cannot dismiss at will. The Scribe of Justice is meant to be a neutral figure who will act as the Solicitor-General, as well as the legal advisor to the Pharaoh and the Cabinet. At the same time, they are meant to be the primary representative of the region to the Courts. Their Ministry is to give legal opinions on possible courses of action at the request from citizens; as a note I don't believe ordinary citizens can request the Court to personally act and those requests must be filed by the Scribe of Justice.

I do not support removing this mandatory ministry. The amendment was written so as to prevent the Pharaoh airbrushing and covering up possible trials and misdeeds, which require a prosecutor to prosecute. I see no reason why it should be removed.

I would generally advise against legislating against this Ministry on the basis it "doesn't do very much"... isn't that meant to be a good thing?

Ainocra · Post by **Ainocra** » Thu May 28, 2015 8:26 am

The Scribe of Justice is the one executive office besides that of Vizier that the Pharaoh cannot dismiss at will.

In point of law you are incorrect. There is no law granting the scribe of justice any special protection from dismissal.

Post by **Lord Ravenclaw** » Thu May 28, 2015 8:44 am

Lovely. I suspect that clause was lost to compromise. It was originally, from my recollection, meant to be an added level of protection to stop the Pharaoh overruling the Justice Scribe.

I think that needs to be added in. Things should be done right.

2.3a: The Ministry of Justice shall be a mandatory Ministry which must have a Scribe assigned to Oversee it. A Scribe may be nominated by the Pharaoh and confirmed by the Deshret. A Scribe of Jusice may only be removed by the Deshret following the appropriate procedures.

Ainocra · Post by **Ainocra** » Thu May 28, 2015 8:56 am

Such an amendment would violate the separation of powers, and does not take into account the stark reality of the situation.

Finding a qualified candidate, that is both able and willing to serve is rather difficult as evidenced by the past administration's failure to do so.

I will have to oppose any such measure.

Post by **Lord Ravenclaw** » Thu May 28, 2015 9:00 am

You are forgetting that the original state code had it listed that the Pharaoh could not dismiss their Scribes. The Deshret had to recall them. When the edit was discussed to remove the mandatory ministries, sans Justice and to allow the Pharaoh to hire and fire their scribes at will, it was the intention that Justice be protected in order to prevent abuses of power by the Pharaoh.

Oppose it all you like. The lack of protection for that office is an oversight that needs to be corrected. I see no reason to loosen the restrictions on this area, if anything I think if a job should be done, it should be done right.

Is it an issue finding someone? Then have the Pharaoh nominate the Vizier officially for those roles. As it stands, the fact that the Vizier is apparently handling multiple departments but isn't officially accountable to the Deshret is a concern.

Ainocra · Post by **Ainocra** » Thu May 28, 2015 9:08 am

I am only concerned with the current state code. In my view having a mandatory ministry is an oversight that needs to be remedied in order to maintain a functioning government.

So you contend that the Vizier cannot be held accountable by the Deshret?

I beg to differ, If the Vizier is not doing his job then I have no doubt that the Deshret would relieve him of it.

Post by **Lord Ravenclaw** » Thu May 28, 2015 9:16 am

I contend that the Vizier is responsible for the Atef and in-game security. If the Pharaoh wishes to nominate the Vizier officially for various scribe roles, I'd support it. I'd even support an amendment to allow it, if it's not possible under the current code.

What I do not support, at all, is the loosening of restrictions on an essential ministry.