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Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:44 am
by Theoden Sebastian
Hear hear!
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:39 pm
by Tano Holland
I disagree with this statement, not from the perspective of a Laz citizen (haven't been super active there for a loooong time), but from a more neutral standpoint. I have seen no actual hostile actions other than strong words taken by Laz officials, and even these have not been official policy within Laz. Furthermore, there was no attempt at resolving the conflict. You did not try to peacefully settle this, nor try to clear up any misconceptions that may exist. You simply severed contact with them and then posted vague threats at any opposing views.
I am not trying to "bring harm to Osi". I happen to be friends (close ones I would like to think) with several people here. I simply find this, again from a more neutral standpoint, as a hasty and dangerous move by the OFO. It could be argued that this is a strong move designed to show that Osi is serious about their business, but it would be better to strike with both strength
and strategy instead of just strength.
I will respect your decision, but if you wish to speak with the Laz government I can serve as a middleman
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:29 pm
by Cormac
Thank you for offering your perspective. Don't worry, we don't consider differing views to be attempts to bring harm to Osiris.
In regard to your comments, indeed there have been strong words from the PRL and they have been met with strong words from the OFO. These words from the PRL have included extremely threatening language directed toward Balder, in particular, as well as our other allies. This included a statement by current Vice-Chairman Funkadelia, also a candidate for Chairman, that he would not rule out "overt hostility" toward Balder as well as The New Inquisition. Framed in the context the question was asked, whether the PRL would limit itself to defending against these regions' raids or engage in more "overt hostility," what Funkadelia was quite clearly saying was that he would not rule out the use of direct military force against Balder.
We will not tolerate threats of direct military force against our allies, even if those threats are veiled so as to provide plausible deniability later. Moreover, we will not tolerate the sustained and escalating tone of unreasonable hostility directed not only toward Balder but toward many of our allies, and indeed toward the imperialist principles we have chosen to adopt for the Osiris Fraternal Order as well.
In regard to the concern that we did not try to "peacefully settle this," there are two problems with this concern. First, it assumes that a severance of diplomatic relations is not a peaceful act. While severing diplomatic relations does indicate that no diplomatic relations exist or will for the foreseeable future exist between our regions, severance of diplomatic relations is not an aggressive act and therefore is peaceful. Second, the PRL has had six months to approach us to determine whether its ever escalating anti-imperialist crusade and its ever more hostile tone toward our allies was going to cause difficulties to relations between our regions. At no point did the PRL approach us. Given that they are the ones who have launched this hostile and aggressive crusade against imperialist regions, a group of regions to which Osiris belongs as was no secret to the PRL, the burden was on the PRL to ensure that its hostile words and actions were not doing damage to relations between our regions. At no point did they do so.
Finally, we did not post "vague threats at any opposing views." Indeed, we have just signed a non-aggression pact with The Rejected Realms. We maintain diplomatic relations with Spiritus and Mordor, both defender regions. We very clearly warned
regions intent upon attacking us or our allies that this is not a wise course of action, and that we will decisively respond to such attacks. That is a reasonable warning, and one that should be taken for granted in any case. The only party that has behaved unreasonably toward those who hold opposing views is the People's Republic of Lazarus.
Again, I appreciate you offering your perspective, but you're off base here and I hope this has clarified the matter.
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:44 pm
by Tano Holland
"Finally, we did not post "vague threats at any opposing views." Indeed, we have just signed a non-aggression pact with The Rejected Realms. We maintain diplomatic relations with Spiritus and Mordor, both defender regions."
You misunderstood my statement. I meant to point out that it seemed like you were making concealed threats to anyone that disagreed with the policy. Perhaps I was wrong in this assumption.
"severance of diplomatic relations is not an aggressive act and therefore is peaceful"
While I agree that a severance of diplomatic relations is not inherently an aggressive act, the way in which it was used in this situation seems to very much suggest that it was an aggressive act. Indeed, some of the words in here seem to be charged. So while a severance of diplomatic ties is not necessarily aggressive, in this situation it is very much so.
My main complaint about this announcement is as stated in my previous post, the lack of communication between both sides. I fear that this severance was taken rashly, and if Laz and Osi had not been previously alienated, they are most defiantly alienated now.
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:51 pm
by Cormac
Thank you for clarifying some of your points.
I don't think it was anyone's intention, least of all mine, to threaten anyone with opposing views. Opposing views don't bring harm to Osiris.
I do understand your complaint, but again, the burden was upon the PRL to communicate with us since it was they, not us, who chose to engage in and escalate hostility against our allies and our regional principles. This severance of relations has occurred after six months of this escalation and zero communication from the PRL, so it is hardly rash. Their blanket campaign against imperialists, even those who cannot be said to have done their region any harm even according to their imaginative interpretation of history, has been rash and it is that campaign of sustained and escalating anti-imperialism that has alienated our regions from each other. Our statement is just a recognition of the reality of this alienation.
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:38 pm
by Zaolat
I think it's about time we made a hard stance.
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:41 am
by War Wombat
A strong move, though some might call it heavy-handed. It's a shame really, but I can't see it being avoided unless principals were compromised.
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:20 am
by Zaolat
This is prolly elsewhere too.
Milograd in GRA wrote:A Semi-Personal Statement on the OFO's/Cormac's Accusations Against Lazarus' Community
Hey. As you've probably noticed, Cormac laid out a pretty harsh letter about Lazarus to every embassy in the game, and we've decided to briefly talk about how we feel about it.
We're not going to write a whole, formal statement legitimizing what has been shown to be little more than an underhanded verbal attack on the character of our community, but we also feel the need to clarify a few things and, in particular, defend the image of a Lazarene who was wrongly accused of being the sort of player to invade a game-created region. So this isn't a diplomatic statement as much as it is just how we feel on a more personal level, as we don't think any eloquent communique could convey our thoughts on this as well as something more colloquial. Essentially, the claims made against us scare us because they are so false that we fear they may actually be believed, and we don't think that the faceless nature of a typical message would successfully communicate our earnesty to those who may have been convinced that the "lying extremists" label that's been placed on us is true.
So first of all, let's get something clear: Osiris never reached out to Lazarus about the issues brought up in this statement. There was never an effort to consult us about concerns (if they truly exist) or to clarify whether or not their worries were based on facts. The claims about Lazarus "not ruling out" an attack on Balder are simply wrong -- when asked about the source of this statement, Cormac cited Funkadelia's comment that he might consider hostility towards Balder if the circumstances called for it. In the context of th econversation, he was referring to verbal hostility in the event that Balder sought to act aggressively towards Lazarus, not a reckless and destructive military assault against Balder. He clarified this after Cormac delivered all the statements, but this was ignored. Frankly, Funkadelia isn't that kind of player, and we hope that those who are familiar with him will come out and support him against the attacks against his character and integrity as player that are part of this statement. Our regional military isn't actually permitted to invade, so the claim is all the more outrageous.
We're also a bit bothered that this was done during our delegacy elections, which Funkadelia is running in. While we don't know whether or not it was intentionally meant to sabotage it, running an interregional campaign suggesting that he- the leading candidate at the time -- supports invading a sinker is something that can change the outcome of our election, and thus our entire future.
While we're not sure of that, we are of the opinion that the OFO's statement is intended to attack Lazarus' character. The language about the OFO being bothered by escalation, Funkadelia's refusal to "rule out" an attack on Balder, and the OFO's commitment to diplomatic goodwill are not consistent with the facts.
The escalation spoken of us is non-existent, and the PRL's disagreements with imperialism pre-date the establishment of our embassy with Osiris. Cormac Stark and the OFO have been unable to provide concrete examples of escalation. If you don't believe us, go ahead and ask him to provide you with one thing that Lazarus is doing towards imperialist regions now that it wasn't doing when we opened relations with the OFO. Cormac has described us "extremists" who are so rabid in our opposition to imperialist policies that we are willing to threaten the sovereignty of a fellow sinker, but our choice to recognize the OFO because of its native support, despite its alignment, should make it clear that that is fundamentally untrue.
Even so, if an issue existed, or if Osiris felt concerned about Lazarus and its policies, a consultation with our foreign affairs officials would've quickly resolved any misunderstandings. But an intentional effort seems to have been made to avoid that productive discourse, and the result is the publication of libel against the Lazarene community. We do not think that that avoidance was a mistake, but, rather, we find the non-communication and tact of this statement to be in line with an agenda of sabotaging the Lazarene community's public image.
That's all we really have to say. We've had enough of having to defend ourselves and our region-mate from wild accusations, and we implore you to gain first-hand observation and to look beyond Cormac's statement, and even this one, if you want to get an accurate picture of what happened. I do not believe that I am entirely right or wrong, and I do not believe that of Cormac either, but I do believe that a logical analysis of the OFO's handling of its concerns, or its lack thereof, and the tact of this statement is consistent with an unfair assault on the character of our community.
Thank you for your time. Your consideration means a lot to us back in Lazarus.
~ Carta
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:31 pm
by shetef
Slade Eisenfaust wrote:Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:20 pmThis is prolly elsewhere too.
Milograd in GRA wrote:A Semi-Personal Statement on the OFO's/Cormac's Accusations Against Lazarus' Community
Hey. As you've probably noticed, Cormac laid out a pretty harsh letter about Lazarus to every embassy in the game, and we've decided to briefly talk about how we feel about it.
We're not going to write a whole, formal statement legitimizing what has been shown to be little more than an underhanded verbal attack on the character of our community, but we also feel the need to clarify a few things and, in particular, defend the image of a Lazarene who was wrongly accused of being the sort of player to invade a game-created region. So this isn't a diplomatic statement as much as it is just how we feel on a more personal level, as we don't think any eloquent communique could convey our thoughts on this as well as something more colloquial. Essentially, the claims made against us scare us because they are so false that we fear they may actually be believed, and we don't think that the faceless nature of a typical message would successfully communicate our earnesty to those who may have been convinced that the "lying extremists" label that's been placed on us is true.
So first of all, let's get something clear: Osiris never reached out to Lazarus about the issues brought up in this statement. There was never an effort to consult us about concerns (if they truly exist) or to clarify whether or not their worries were based on facts. The claims about Lazarus "not ruling out" an attack on Balder are simply wrong -- when asked about the source of this statement, Cormac cited Funkadelia's comment that he might consider hostility towards Balder if the circumstances called for it. In the context of th econversation, he was referring to verbal hostility in the event that Balder sought to act aggressively towards Lazarus, not a reckless and destructive military assault against Balder. He clarified this after Cormac delivered all the statements, but this was ignored. Frankly, Funkadelia isn't that kind of player, and we hope that those who are familiar with him will come out and support him against the attacks against his character and integrity as player that are part of this statement. Our regional military isn't actually permitted to invade, so the claim is all the more outrageous.
We're also a bit bothered that this was done during our delegacy elections, which Funkadelia is running in. While we don't know whether or not it was intentionally meant to sabotage it, running an interregional campaign suggesting that he- the leading candidate at the time -- supports invading a sinker is something that can change the outcome of our election, and thus our entire future.
While we're not sure of that, we are of the opinion that the OFO's statement is intended to attack Lazarus' character. The language about the OFO being bothered by escalation, Funkadelia's refusal to "rule out" an attack on Balder, and the OFO's commitment to diplomatic goodwill are not consistent with the facts.
The escalation spoken of us is non-existent, and the PRL's disagreements with imperialism pre-date the establishment of our embassy with Osiris. Cormac Stark and the OFO have been unable to provide concrete examples of escalation. If you don't believe us, go ahead and ask him to provide you with one thing that Lazarus is doing towards imperialist regions now that it wasn't doing when we opened relations with the OFO. Cormac has described us "extremists" who are so rabid in our opposition to imperialist policies that we are willing to threaten the sovereignty of a fellow sinker, but our choice to recognize the OFO because of its native support, despite its alignment, should make it clear that that is fundamentally untrue.
Even so, if an issue existed, or if Osiris felt concerned about Lazarus and its policies, a consultation with our foreign affairs officials would've quickly resolved any misunderstandings. But an intentional effort seems to have been made to avoid that productive discourse, and the result is the publication of libel against the Lazarene community. We do not think that that avoidance was a mistake, but, rather, we find the non-communication and tact of this statement to be in line with an agenda of sabotaging the Lazarene community's public image.
That's all we really have to say. We've had enough of having to defend ourselves and our region-mate from wild accusations, and we implore you to gain first-hand observation and to look beyond Cormac's statement, and even this one, if you want to get an accurate picture of what happened. I do not believe that I am entirely right or wrong, and I do not believe that of Cormac either, but I do believe that a logical analysis of the OFO's handling of its concerns, or its lack thereof, and the tact of this statement is consistent with an unfair assault on the character of our community.
Thank you for your time. Your consideration means a lot to us back in Lazarus.
~ Carta
Yup, he posted that in Equilism as well.
Severance of Diplomatic Relations
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:05 pm
by Koth
Holy fucking fuck, Milo is beyond retarded. How many times must he be told that the whole of the Hedjet was responsible for this statement, and Cormac's name is only on it because he's the Scribe of Horus? For someone who seems to be taking this severance as a personal attack, he sure knows how to dish them himself.