[Discussion] Motion to Declare George Holland Persona Non Grata

[Zaolat]

I'll say this, and for personal reasons this is all I'll say in regard to this matter:

He is at least as much of a threat to our security as Tim, who never gave away a high influence, high endorsement nation -- second in endorsement count only to the Pharaoh. The best case scenario there was what occurred, which was ejection and ban of Mad Jack at significant influence cost to the Pharaoh. The worst case scenario is what thankfully did not occur, a coup d'etat, though it wasn't for lack of trying as the person in possession of Mad Jack tarted.

Obviously, George isn't responsible for what the person to whom he gave Mad Jack did with it afterward, but he is responsible for handing off the nation at all after we had entrusted him with the position of Vizier. He is also responsible for the actions that came before his recall, and the hostile position he has taken toward the Osiris Fraternal Order since his return to NationStates.

Does all of this mean we should declare him persona non grata? Not for me to say, and I would rather not say anyway. What it does mean is that if we're going to have any kind of consistency, Tim should not be treated more severely. If this persona non grata declaration doesn't pass, the Deshret should immediately repeal Tim's.

While I get that, I feel we're PNGing too much and stand opposed for that.

Also, one of the main reasons I went for PNG on Tim, was so that he could prove that he is not out for Osiris and if he wanted in, he'd have to work for it. Whether it works out that way or not, to me that was a better reason than some other reasons for his PNG.

[Vaculatestar]

ignore

[Cormac]

It is extremely important, given that the Deshret has vested itself with ultimate decision making on persona non grata declarations, that we make rational decisions in regard to these declarations. It is vitally important that these not become popularity contests. If that is what they are going to become, persona non grata power should be shifted to the Pharaoh, or to the Pharaoh and the Atef, but if this assembly can't make rational, consistent decisions it shouldn't have the power to decide persona non grata status.

Here is what is not a rational decision: Declaring Tim Stark, whose offenses against the Osiris Fraternal Order are vague at best and certainly not proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, persona non grata -- while not declaring George Holland, who is known to have given his second highest endorsement, extremely high influence nation to someone else whom none of us have ever even met. All because he was bitter he had been recalled from his position as Vizier. Do bear in mind as well why he was recalled. To refresh your memories, the discussion of his recall is here for anyone who wants to review it.

I'm not saying I think George should be declared persona non grata. What I am saying is that this arbitrary declaration of some people as persona non grata, and then opting not to do the same for people who have quite clearly done worse, must stop. Persona non grata status isn't meant to be a popularity contest or a means to keep out defenders who might offer a contrasting point of view, and I'm having trouble seeing how declaring Tim persona non grata while not doing the same for George would be anything but that kind of popularity contest and suppression of dissent that is frankly bullshit and has no place in this region. That is the kind of factional, self-interested, and irrational decision making that the Osiris Fraternal Order was established to root out of Osiris.

By all means, feel free to decline to declare George Holland persona non grata. But I'm going to be very clear here: If he isn't declared persona non grata, I'm going to immediately introduce a repeal of Tim's persona non grata status, and I truly hope that the Deshret will decide to turn away from this course of irrational mob rule that it has recently begun to pursue. That isn't what this government or this community is supposed to be about, and we are proving our detractors right by making these kinds of arbitrary, irrational decisions.

[Quadrimmina]

It appears to me that we should create some criteria (even if we leave ourselves some leeway for extenuating circumstances) that people need to meet to get PNG. I joined OFO around the time of Tim's PNG, and I still don't understand what justified it, other than what appears to be a hysteria.