[Defeated] Criminal Code Amendment and Introduction Act

[Wymondham]

I motion this to a vote

[Sygian]

Due to the fact that this is clearly still in a discussion stage, I don't think it's ready to be put to vote.

[Adytus]

Yes. Even if it gets the two seconds I'll hold it for the full 7 days.

[Wymondham]

After realising that this is indeed still being discussed I withdraw my motion to vote.

[Macalister JJ Rahl]

I'm strongly against this. This would essentially gut the Pharaoh's power to suspend or revoke citizenship for security reasons, a power which has been in place, in some form, since the crisis involving the Grey Wardens necessitated a state of emergency to resolve it. That state of emergency was needed precisely because we were hamstrung by the law and could only remove citizenship by prosecuting someone for a crime, which was a problem in that the Grey Wardens present in Osiris at the time had not committed any crime that was already on the books, and also because there were Grey Wardens serving as judges. Had the state of emergency not been declared, the only recourse for taking action against Grey Wardens in Osiris would have been to recall the two Wardens serving as judges and then to declare war against the Grey Wardens, which then would have made their continued participation in the Wardens sedition. We opted for a state of emergency because it seemed less extreme than a declaration of war.

Given that we no longer have any state of emergency power, and given that a state of emergency is undesirable in any case, we don't want to hamstring ourselves again by reverting to the exact same circumstances that led to the state of emergency in 2016. So this language is going to have to be completely stricken from the legislation, or I'll be forced to vote against the legislation. We can't go back to a situation in which we are so ensnared by our laws that we are unable to act against threats to Osiris, leaving violation of the law -- which is to say, the Pharaoh taking unilateral and illegal action -- as the only recourse. That has happened too many times in Osiris in the past and we keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Is there any sort of language you would support that would at least regulate the Pharaoh's ability to remove citizenship at will? I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion that the Pharaoh can just go 'boop, you're not a citizen anymore' without any limits (and if I missed any existing limits, please forgive me, I have not yet completely memorized the Scrolls from top to bottom).

I do agree with that there are situations of security threats (not to mention cases of RL behavior that stand beyond any sort of roleplay (in the sense that none of us are actually citizens of a country that doesn't really exist - its all as OOC as anything in NS gets) court's ability to deal with effectively - such as what Anumia was doing in Europeia behind the scenes) or when the situation demands immediate action. So I agree that change needs to be unchanged. Still, some sort of useful-broad-based language would be good so it isn't purely at Pharaohanic whim?

Perhaps amending some more detail surrounding the meaning of 'security risk', and the formalisation of the procedure for declaring someone a security risk. I'm not personally for removing the power from the Pharoah at all, but some stronger legal definition in the area could prevent any semblance of abuse of the power.

[Adytus]

Is there any sort of language you would support that would at least regulate the Pharaoh's ability to remove citizenship at will? I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion that the Pharaoh can just go 'boop, you're not a citizen anymore' without any limits (and if I missed any existing limits, please forgive me, I have not yet completely memorized the Scrolls from top to bottom).

If I recall correctly, in order for the Pharaoh to revoke someone's citizenship, he or she must obtain approval from the Council of Priests, so 2/3 of the council members before revoking citizenship.

(3) The Pharaoh may, with the approval of the Council of Priests, impose suspension or revocation of citizenship to preserve the security and stability of Osiris.

[Kylia Quilor]

Is there any sort of language you would support that would at least regulate the Pharaoh's ability to remove citizenship at will? I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion that the Pharaoh can just go 'boop, you're not a citizen anymore' without any limits (and if I missed any existing limits, please forgive me, I have not yet completely memorized the Scrolls from top to bottom).

If I recall correctly, in order for the Pharaoh to revoke someone's citizenship, he or she must obtain approval from the Council of Priests, so 2/3 of the council members before revoking citizenship.

(3) The Pharaoh may, with the approval of the Council of Priests, impose suspension or revocation of citizenship to preserve the security and stability of Osiris.

That's enough for me then. Like I said, I hadn't memorized the Scrolls yet.

Gracias

[Wymondham]

I would like to motion this to a vote

[Agapiosia]

I'm strongly against this. This would essentially gut the Pharaoh's power to suspend or revoke citizenship for security reasons, a power which has been in place, in some form, since the crisis involving the Grey Wardens necessitated a state of emergency to resolve it. That state of emergency was needed precisely because we were hamstrung by the law and could only remove citizenship by prosecuting someone for a crime, which was a problem in that the Grey Wardens present in Osiris at the time had not committed any crime that was already on the books, and also because there were Grey Wardens serving as judges. Had the state of emergency not been declared, the only recourse for taking action against Grey Wardens in Osiris would have been to recall the two Wardens serving as judges and then to declare war against the Grey Wardens, which then would have made their continued participation in the Wardens sedition. We opted for a state of emergency because it seemed less extreme than a declaration of war.

I am in entire agreement with this.

On Wym's second, I would like more discussion in this thread before it goes to vote.

[Cormac]

I will be an unequivocal Nay vote if this legislation goes to vote with the amendment to Article I, Section 3(4) of the Scroll of Ma'at still in place. We absolutely cannot go back to a situation in which we are once again so hamstrung in dealing with threats to our security that the Pharaoh is forced to take extralegal action to address the situation. It's like a bad NS version of Groundhog Day in this region. We do silly things with our legislation, there is a coup to fix them, and then we do the exact same silly things and expect a different result. How many coups are we going to have to have before people stop legislating the same restrictions that always, always lead to problems? We need to be able to deal with security threats. Full stop. We need to stop playing Liberal Democracy and start playing NationStates.

We shouldn't even have a criminal code or a court. There, I said it. We were fine without one. No, we weren't just fine without one, we were better without one. Threats were dealt with quickly and efficiently, with minimal drama to the community because the threats weren't allowed to sit around for weeks flamethrowing and doing everything they could to either avoid the consequences of their actions or do as much damage as they could to the community on their way out. Why you folks wanted to replace that quick and efficient system with a slow, clunky, dysfunctional system -- which is how every NS judicial system turns out -- is beyond me, and why you want to now go even further and place the security of Osiris totally in the hands of that system is just mind boggling. Literally, can you not? Thanks a bunch.